Donkbetting

[jmbreslin 0]

Is it just me, or is donkbetting an epidemic these days? It seems like it's the new(ish) strategy for countering positional aggression and it drives me bananas. Typical situation: playing 6-max cash, I raise in the CO w/ AT, BB calls, I miss the flop and BB leads into me. Or maybe I raise on the Button w/ A7, BB calls, flop comes 78Q, BB leads into me. I never know what to do in these situations (absent a good quality read on the player).In these kinds of situations, where you raise PF and either whiff on the flop or connect weakly, how do you normally handle the donkbet? Do you tend to call down and see how villain reacts on the turn? Raise to test villain? I tend to feel lost when this happens.

[SlapStick 0]

Donk betting and min raising makes homer go something something.Player dependant, usually will raise the first one with no reads, then re-evaluate if he keeps doing it. If its not a tricky player I'm worried about I'll usually raise it, its our pot.Last two times I remember that i raised, it was insta fold and call with middle pair from two live opponents.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Is it just me, or is donkbetting an epidemic these days? It seems like it's the new(ish) strategy for countering positional aggression and it drives me bananas. Typical situation: playing 6-max cash, I raise in the CO w/ AT, BB calls, I miss the flop and BB leads into me. Or maybe I raise on the Button w/ A7, BB calls, flop comes 78Q, BB leads into me. I never know what to do in these situations (absent a good quality read on the player).In these kinds of situations, where you raise PF and either whiff on the flop or connect weakly, how do you normally handle the donkbet? Do you tend to call down and see how villain reacts on the turn? Raise to test villain? I tend to feel lost when this happens.

Watch what the villain does in other situations. Then decide.

[simo_8ball 1]

Donk betting and min raising makes homer go something something.

Close, but no cigar.

[SlapStick 0]

makes homer something something? arrg

[Giggidy 0]

I go off AF and w$wsd figures - if villain is fairly tight then I fold

[Bessel 0]

Is it just me, or is donkbetting an epidemic these days? It seems like it's the new(ish) strategy for countering positional aggression and it drives me bananas. Typical situation: playing 6-max cash, I raise in the CO w/ AT, BB calls, I miss the flop and BB leads into me. Or maybe I raise on the Button w/ A7, BB calls, flop comes 78Q, BB leads into me. I never know what to do in these situations (absent a good quality read on the player).In these kinds of situations, where you raise PF and either whiff on the flop or connect weakly, how do you normally handle the donkbet? Do you tend to call down and see how villain reacts on the turn? Raise to test villain? I tend to feel lost when this happens.

I raise flop donk bets a lot (whether I connect or not), especially when they are less than the pot. They are so regularly someone betting to "see where they're at", and they can't stand any more aggression and muck. I really hate calling if we connect weakly.I think pot donks tend to be pretty strong though.What are your stakes?

[mtdesmoines 2]

how are we defining donk betting again?

[SlapStick 0]

how are we defining donk betting again?

betting into whoever led the last street. I'm getting real paranoid of being levelled lately. I'm afraid to post serious answers at this stage

[mtdesmoines 2]

Is it just me, or is donkbetting an epidemic these days? It seems like it's the new(ish) strategy for countering positional aggression and it drives me bananas. Typical situation: playing 6-max cash, I raise in the CO w/ AT, BB calls, I miss the flop and BB leads into me. Or maybe I raise on the Button w/ A7, BB calls, flop comes 78Q, BB leads into me. I never know what to do in these situations (absent a good quality read on the player).In these kinds of situations, where you raise PF and either whiff on the flop or connect weakly, how do you normally handle the donkbet? Do you tend to call down and see how villain reacts on the turn? Raise to test villain? I tend to feel lost when this happens.

betting into whoever led the last street. I'm getting real paranoid of being levelled lately. I'm afraid to post serious answers at this stage

Then your answer is in the OP

[jmbreslin 0]

I raise flop donk bets a lot (whether I connect or not), especially when they are less than the pot. They are so regularly someone betting to "see where they're at", and they can't stand any more aggression and muck. I really hate calling if we connect weakly.I think pot donks tend to be pretty strong though.What are your stakes?

Micro stakes (.02-.05). I only recently started playing cash after focusing almost exclusively on tournament NLHE and the play seems surprisingly aggressive (donkbetting being one example).Sometimes I decide to call the flop and see what happens, but most of the time villains just fire again and I end up folding. Or he checks the turn, I fire at the pot, he calls, and then leads out again on the river.The advantage of calling rather than raising is that you give yourself a chance to hit a hand on the turn (assuming you've whiffed on the flop) and calling both the flop and turn can cost you the same (and perhaps less) than raising the flop. Small ball, in other words.The advantage of raising the flop is that you stand a better chance of taking it down if villain is just testing and it also sends a message that you're not going to be pushed off pots by donkbets.Good reasons for both moves. And it's hard to get a reliable read at these stakes because players move around so much.

[Bessel 0]

Micro stakes (.02-.05). I only recently started playing cash after focusing almost exclusively on tournament NLHE and the play seems surprisingly aggressive (donkbetting being one example).

Cool. I played tourneys for the first 2 years of my poker "career", but now play 6-max cash exclusively. Much more enjoyable

The advantage of calling rather than raising is that you give yourself a chance to hit a hand on the turn (assuming you've whiffed on the flop) and calling both the flop and turn can cost you the same (and perhaps less) than raising the flop.

Yeah but if you 3 bet their donk bet on the flop and they call (which they won't more often that not in my experience), and you improve on the turn you can fire again, they'll get confused thinking you had a hand on the flop and call again. E.g. you open A8 OTB, bb calls. BB donks on flop 85Kr, you 3 bet, bb call. Turn is A, bb checks (or donks whatever) you raise again, and he'll think KT is good and shove. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Small ball, in other words.

I haven't read Daniel's book yet, but I think the key to beating micro stakes is VALUE BETTING more than anything. I think the subtleties of small ball are prob wasted on $5NL. But I may well be wrong having not read the book.

[Giggidy 0]

And it's hard to get a reliable read at these stakes because players move around so much.

If you've not got Pocker Tracker already, it's well worth getting for these stakes - i think it's helped my game loads, i'm poor instead of terrible

[pokerinc 0]

Raise, see what happens, take note, repeat. Donk, 4-bet, is strong, Donk, fold or call is weak at those stakes pretty much 100%.

[nutzzcase 0]

this is how u donk bet,4-bet ,call with nothing and get lucky :)Full Tilt Poker Game #7245460216: Table Hualapai (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:53 ET - 2008/07/16Seat 1: xxNaitsabesxx ($49.25)Seat 2: rowdy20 ($58.15)Seat 3: lostnutzcase ($47.85)Seat 4: Bodo84 ($50)Seat 5: Imperceptus ($64.65)Seat 6: Konde18 ($39.75)rowdy20 posts the small blind of $0.25lostnutzcase posts the big blind of $0.50The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to lostnutzcase [Tc Qd]Imperceptus foldsKonde18 raises to $1.75xxNaitsabesxx foldsrowdy20 foldslostnutzcase calls $1.25*** FLOP *** [Jc 7d 5c]lostnutzcase bets $0.50Konde18 raises to $3lostnutzcase raises to $7.50Konde18 calls $4.50*** TURN *** [Jc 7d 5c] [8h]lostnutzcase bets $13.50Konde18 has 15 seconds left to actKonde18 raises to $30.50, and is all inlostnutzcase calls $17Konde18 shows [Ac Qs]lostnutzcase shows [Tc Qd]*** RIVER *** [Jc 7d 5c 8h] [9d]Konde18 shows Ace Queen highlostnutzcase shows a straight, Queen highlostnutzcase wins the pot ($76.75) with a straight, Queen highKonde18 adds $10*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $79.75 | Rake $3Board: [Jc 7d 5c 8h 9d]Seat 1: xxNaitsabesxx (button) didn't bet (folded)Seat 2: rowdy20 (small blind) folded before the FlopSeat 3: lostnutzcase (big blind) showed [Tc Qd] and won ($76.75) with a straight, Queen highSeat 4: Bodo84 is sitting outSeat 5: Imperceptus didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: Konde18 showed [Ac Qs] and lost with Ace Queen high

[jmbreslin 0]

this is how u donk bet,4-bet ,call with nothing and get lucky :)Full Tilt Poker Game #7245460216: Table Hualapai (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:10:53 ET - 2008/07/16Seat 1: xxNaitsabesxx ($49.25)Seat 2: rowdy20 ($58.15)Seat 3: lostnutzcase ($47.85)Seat 4: Bodo84 ($50)Seat 5: Imperceptus ($64.65)Seat 6: Konde18 ($39.75)rowdy20 posts the small blind of $0.25lostnutzcase posts the big blind of $0.50The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to lostnutzcase [Tc Qd]Imperceptus foldsKonde18 raises to $1.75xxNaitsabesxx foldsrowdy20 foldslostnutzcase calls $1.25*** FLOP *** [Jc 7d 5c]lostnutzcase bets $0.50Konde18 raises to $3lostnutzcase raises to $7.50Konde18 calls $4.50*** TURN *** [Jc 7d 5c] [8h]lostnutzcase bets $13.50Konde18 has 15 seconds left to actKonde18 raises to $30.50, and is all inlostnutzcase calls $17Konde18 shows [Ac Qs]lostnutzcase shows [Tc Qd]*** RIVER *** [Jc 7d 5c 8h] [9d]Konde18 shows Ace Queen highlostnutzcase shows a straight, Queen highlostnutzcase wins the pot ($76.75) with a straight, Queen highKonde18 adds $10*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $79.75 | Rake $3Board: [Jc 7d 5c 8h 9d]Seat 1: xxNaitsabesxx (button) didn't bet (folded)Seat 2: rowdy20 (small blind) folded before the FlopSeat 3: lostnutzcase (big blind) showed [Tc Qd] and won ($76.75) with a straight, Queen highSeat 4: Bodo84 is sitting outSeat 5: Imperceptus didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: Konde18 showed [Ac Qs] and lost with Ace Queen high

Wow, I can't decide who was the bigger donk in that hand!

[CobaltBlue 662]

I raise flop donk bets a lot (whether I connect or not), especially when they are less than the pot. They are so regularly someone betting to "see where they're at", and they can't stand any more aggression and muck.I think pot donks tend to be pretty strong though.

Online, mostly this. Playing live, donkbets are usually at least TPTK. The problem with pot-donks is that they're so much harder to raise, but they're not necessarily indicative of stronger hands.When villains get more sophisticated, you'll see them take donk/3bet lines with sets and big draws, but you'll just have to figure out who those rare opponents are.Summary: raise the donkbets. If they get stubborn and call the raise, fire the turn...you'll be surprised how many go away.

[Bessel 0]

The problem with pot-donks is that they're so much harder to raise, but they're not necessarily indicative of stronger hands.

Yeah this is a good point, that I hadn't really put my finger on. On places like Full Tilt with a Bet Pot button, the micro donks either min bet or bet pot, and there isn't usually much of a tell in the bet sizing.If you're 3 betting a flop donk pot bet, in a raised pot, you are looking at about risking about 1/3 a stack, which is a lot especially if you are doing it with air. But if they have 100bb they still have fold equity (that is the first time I've used that term, hope I used it appropriately ).

[CobaltBlue 662]

If you're 3 betting a flop donk pot bet, in a raised pot, you are looking at about risking about 1/3 a stack, which is a lot especially if you are doing it with air. But if they have 100bb they still have fold equity (that is the first time I've used that term, hope I used it appropriately ).

I notice that you're saying '3-betting' when you just mean 'raising'. Not a big deal, but just thought I'd point it out. And yeah, let's say you're playing .50/1 w/ $100 relative stacks and you pop to $4 from the button and the BB calls. The pot is $8.50, he pots...a reasonable raise is going to be to $22-28. Let's say instead that we went to $3.50 and he donks $4 into $7.50. Well, now we can raise to like $11-16. You did use fold equity correctly.