Making The Same Mistakes Again

[Citizen Erased 0]

Okay, this is probably a general topic re. missing hands OOP.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP ($9.85)CO ($10.85)Button ($32.30)SB ($9.50)BB ($10.05)Hero ($10.40)Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A. Hero raises to $0.35, 2 folds, Button raises to $1.2, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.85.Flop: ($2.55) 5, 4, Q(2 players)Hero ???Can we warrant a shove PF to eliminate being OOP? Do we want to be 4-betting this 100%, but then we are shoving any flop if he just flats? I'm lost...

[Giggidy 0]

Nice post - i'd like to know this tooInfo on villain? Betting into him would depend entirely on his stats for me

[Metternich 0]

A shove preflop is excessive, but I 4-bet it 3.6ish

[NoBBiR 0]

I generally would at least 4 bet. Like M said, a shove would be absurd, but I probably make it 5ish and gladly stack off pre. If he flat calls the 4-bet, I probably shove any flop.

[rdtedm 0]

A shove preflop is excessive, but I 4-bet it 3.6ish

[Acid_Knight 2]

Understand that the main reasons that you should call preflop are:1. You think your opponent might raise you with a hand like AQ or KQ that you dominate, but would not call a 4 bet, and you're comfortable playing post flop OOP.2. You think it's likely that your opponnt's range is very narrow, like AK, JJ+ and you want to see a flop before committing chipsIf you're not excited about getting it in preflop here (my general line would be 4bet/call shove) then you should just check/fold this flop given how you played the hand.

[gfdsa146 0]

I generally would at least 4 bet. Like M said, a shove would be absurd, but I probably make it 5ish and gladly stack off pre. If he flat calls the 4-bet, I probably shove any flop.

This is me.

[BaseJester 1]

A shove preflop is excessive, but I 4-bet it 3.6ish

That's not a lot different. You'll end up committing your stack with a continuation bet anyway after that 4-bet.

[Sheiky 0]

I would only 4-bet if I felt I could get it in profitably V the button, if I don't i generaly just flat.

[Solar 0]

I find that a low stakes peoples 3-betting range is pretty tight, QQ+ or AK maybe AQs. Without some read to the contrary I just call PF

[NoBBiR 0]

That's not a lot different. You'll end up committing your stack with a continuation bet anyway after that 4-bet.

Yes, but if you're not shoving AA or KK here, then shoving AK is stupid. If you're making a normal 4bet with AA or KK trying to get value, then you should uniform your action so that people can't say "Hey, he overshoved, he must have AK!"

I find that a low stakes peoples 3-betting range is pretty tight, QQ+ or AK maybe AQs. Without some read to the contrary I just call PF

In position I would say that might be wise, but playing this hand OOP against the button and without the benefit of being able to cbet and win the hand, I think it is bad, imo.

[Dictius 0]

Yes, but if you're not shoving AA or KK here, then shoving AK is stupid. If you're making a normal 4bet with AA or KK trying to get value, then you should uniform your action so that people can't say "Hey, he overshoved, he must have AK!"

Whilst this is true in a pure unexploitable type strategy the reality is at $10NL the player base is so large it is unlikely you play with many people more than once. If you do play with people more than once the chances of playing with them long enough to see you get AA/KK/AK several times AND the chances of the average $10NL player noticing are minimal imo.The best way to play micro limits is really exploitatively, rather than optimal, because 99% of your opponents will not adjust and exploit you back.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Whilst this is true in a pure unexploitable type strategy the reality is at $10NL the player base is so large it is unlikely you play with many people more than once. If you do play with people more than once the chances of playing with them long enough to see you get AA/KK/AK several times AND the chances of the average $10NL player noticing are minimal imo.The best way to play micro limits is really exploitatively, rather than optimal, because 99% of your opponents will not adjust and exploit you back.

I disagree with this. While certain things can be done exploitably without people noticing, something as simple as making a standard 4 bet and calling a shove instead of just shoving is pretty critical because you don't want to get into the habit of making transparent preflop plays and you want to learn how to play AK OOP in a spot like this if he flats the 4 bet.FWIW, people should not, and rarely do flat 4 bets when only 100BBs deep. You'll get a fold or get shoved on almost awalys.

[psujohn 0]

Assuming button is fairly tight/passive (the general 10NL player is) then I don't mind flatting pre and ch/folding the flop.I can't stand 4-bet/folding a hand as strong as AK so if you're going to 4-bet you MUST be willing to call a push. If villain's pre-flop pushing range is tight it's not going to be profitable to get it in pre.

[jmbreslin 0]

Is flatting PF and then leading the flop not an option?

[Sheiky 0]

Is flatting PF and then leading the flop not an option?

Why would you lead the flop? What flop? Any flop?

[potatoman 0]

Assuming button is fairly tight/passive (the general 10NL player is) then I don't mind flatting pre and ch/folding the flop.I can't stand 4-bet/folding a hand as strong as AK so if you're going to 4-bet you MUST be willing to call a push. If villain's pre-flop pushing range is tight it's not going to be profitable to get it in pre.

I think this is how I usually approach these situations (with no read), although I'm far from convinced the way I play is correct. At these stakes, I'm pretty content to see flops, hit them, and stack people off over and over again.The strong argument for reraising/calling shoves preflop here, is the fact that we're out of position with a hand that's not easy to play post-flop.The argument against, is your average $10 nl player doesn't reraise a whole lot without JJ+ There are some opponents who only reraise with QQ+. Others will reraise with 6s+ and 89s+. Without reads I usually just flat, see a flop and try to play the hand carefully from there. If you flat, I think it's a check fold here. I don't hate getting it allin preflop though, but probably not the way I would play $10 nl.

[jmbreslin 0]

Why would you lead the flop? What flop? Any flop?

(*Disclaimer: I'm primarily a tourney player, not cash)I don't know, kind of like a stop-n-go in tourney poker. I personally don't like the idea of getting it all in PF with a hand that is likely to be a coinflip dog in cash poker, so I'm reluctant to get in a PF raising war. Raising PF and then check-folding seems like giving up on the hand, while calling and leading at least (1) allows Hero to see a flop and (2) forces villain to react to a bet on the flop.