Standard Fold?

[ROBBBIGG 0]

I'm a 200NLHE grinder and have been spending most of my time lately playing from 50 to 200PLO and PLO8. I am probably outclassed at 200PLO and maybe even 100PLO but I've been winning so things have been fun. Most of the time am I just about completely dead here? One likely has a set and the other likely has the nut flush draw, correct?PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($368.25)Button ($194.30)SB ($262.30)BB ($342.45)UTG ($58.20)Hero ($237.65)Preflop: Hero is MP with 6, K, K, 4. UTG calls $2, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, Button calls $8, SB calls $7, 1 fold, UTG calls $6.Flop: ($34) 8, J, 2(4 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $24, Button raises to $104.3, SB folds, UTG calls $50.20 (All-In), Hero folds.Turn: ($212.50) T(2 players, 1 all-in)River: ($212.50) 9(2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: $158.40

[BudBundy 0]

I don't see how you can be completely dead here. The only time you are completely dead here is when someone has aces with the flush draw.I'd bet pot on flop and push if raised.

[uncooper 1]

I don't see how you can be completely dead here. The only time you are completely dead here is when someone has aces with the flush draw.I'd bet pot on flop and push if raised.

Wouldn't we be in pretty bad shape against the nut flush draw and OESD? Or NFD and a set? Would we even be good against NFD and two pair? I don't have access to pokerstove. We are putting in more than 1/3 of the money, so we really need a bunch of equity to continue.I can understand giving UTG little credit. He limped, called a raise, checked the flop, and then called all-in getting 2 to 1.I'd love to see the above mentioned equity calculations. Also Bud, what kind of hand ranges are you giving them? I understand that they are significantly wider than just the situations I mentioned.

[bdc30 0]

I don't have access to pokerstove.

Use ProPokerToolsvs. nut flush draw and straight draws board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 19.11% 113,843 1,633Ah4h** 47.05% 280,048 4,5219dTdQc* 33.84% 201,588 2,888vs nut flush draw and set board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 9.79% 57,762 1,958Ah4h** 27.17% 161,921 2,2202c2d** 63.04% 377,998 474vs nut flush draw and 2p board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 15.08% 89,489 2,000Ah4h** 36.64% 217,876 3,8828c2h** 48.28% 288,601 2,196I think all the above point to a fold to his raise and the all in call.

[BigLebowski 0]

Yeah, I really don't like risking it here even before I saw bdc's numbers. After seeing those I think it is a clear fold.

[uncooper 1]

Use ProPokerToolsvs. nut flush draw and straight draws board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 19.11% 113,843 1,633Ah4h** 47.05% 280,048 4,5219dTdQc* 33.84% 201,588 2,888vs nut flush draw and set board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 9.79% 57,762 1,958Ah4h** 27.17% 161,921 2,2202c2d** 63.04% 377,998 474vs nut flush draw and 2p board: 8hJh2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKh6hKd4d 15.08% 89,489 2,000Ah4h** 36.64% 217,876 3,8828c2h** 48.28% 288,601 2,196I think all the above point to a fold to his raise and the all in call.

Didn't know about that website, nice!Kh6hKd4d 41.81% 250,404 884Lh*h** 23.82% 137,214 11,3899T** 34.37% 200,687 11,118If we ship the flop, and are called by button with these hands* we will be risking an additional ~163 to win ~377. Or putting in 43% of the money. So essentially break-even, or slightly -EV if I did accurate math.I don't know how to account for the fact that the side pot will be contested HU. Against most of the hands except bare OESD and non-nut FD, we have bad equity in that pot as well, having put in half the money with about 30% equity though.* OESD and non-nut FD

[ROBBBIGG 0]

thanks, seemed like a v easy fold when i folded but when they showed up with top set vs a wrap i go "UGH woulda hit!" though that's not how we should play poker.

[antistuff 0]

thanks, seemed like a v easy fold when i folded but when they showed up with top set vs a wrap i go "UGH woulda hit!" though that's not how we should play poker.

pfffttt speak for yourself. i run so good i get it all in there and expect to be behind and win anyway.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

pfffttt speak for yourself. i run so good i get it all in there and expect to be behind and win anyway.

that's how i play nlhe

[uncooper 1]

thanks, seemed like a v easy fold when i folded but when they showed up with top set vs a wrap i go "UGH woulda hit!" though that's not how we should play poker.

So did button have the wrap?

[ROBBBIGG 0]

So did button have the wrap?

he had top set

[iggymcfly 0]

Getting it in here is super-standard. If UTG had you covered, then maybe you could worry about one player having a good made hand and the other having the NFD. But if you can get it in 50/50 in the side pot (and I'd guess you're about 50% vs. button's range), you only have to call $26 into a $180 main pot. That means that you'd only need 15% equity 3-ways, and there are lots of times where either no one has the NFD or you're against 2 draws and your KK is good. Sorry, but this is a bad fold.

[BudBundy 0]

Getting it in here is super-standard. If UTG had you covered, then maybe you could worry about one player having a good made hand and the other having the NFD. But if you can get it in 50/50 in the side pot (and I'd guess you're about 50% vs. button's range), you only have to call $26 into a $180 main pot. That means that you'd only need 15% equity 3-ways, and there are lots of times where either no one has the NFD or you're against 2 draws and your KK is good. Sorry, but this is a bad fold.

This is one of the situations which i kinda know the right play but i am not capable of explaining it. Thanks.

[uncooper 1]

Getting it in here is super-standard. If UTG had you covered, then maybe you could worry about one player having a good made hand and the other having the NFD. But if you can get it in 50/50 in the side pot (and I'd guess you're about 50% vs. button's range), you only have to call $26 into a $180 main pot. That means that you'd only need 15% equity 3-ways, and there are lots of times where either no one has the NFD or you're against 2 draws and your KK is good. Sorry, but this is a bad fold.

Can you put together some hand ranges for them? As you can see above, we often don't have even 15% equity in the main pot or 50% equity in the side pot.

[simo_8ball 1]

Can you put together some hand ranges for them? As you can see above, we often don't have even 15% equity in the main pot or 50% equity in the side pot.

board: Jh8h2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKhKd6h4d 36.18% 216,935 294JJ**,88**,J8**,JT9*,Ah*hJ* 31.95% 169,739 43,945JJ**,88**,J8**,JT9*,Ah*hJ* 31.87% 169,236 43,941 board: Jh8h2sHand Pot equity Wins TiesKhKd6h4d 43.36% 260,039 183JJ**,88**,J8**,JT9*,Ah*hJ* 56.64% 339,778 183

[dingas 0]

This really seems like one of those situations where you do the math and it comes out as +/- $10 EV on your $200 investment depending on what assumptions you make about your opponents' ranges. I don't think it's clear-cut enough to make a definite statement one way or the other. I would say that if you're playing in a game where making the right call in this type of situation is what defines whether you are a winner or a loser, then chances are you should be able to find a better game.

[timwakefield 69]

Haven't read replies, with those stack sizes and your action I think this is a very easy call pretty much every time. It's not like somebody's re-re-re-potting for 250 bbs here - the small stack calling all-in can have any sort of draw and likes his odds. The $100 shovel has a flush draw sometimes, and maybe half of those times it's the nut hearts (random villain). Your odds are ridiculously good, bet/fold is a big spew against a 50bb stack here.

[timwakefield 69]

I would say that if you're playing in a game where making the right call in this type of situation is what defines whether you are a winner or a loser, then chances are you should be able to find a better game.

This is a massively +ev call for us unless both of our opponents are Ninny McNitterson to the nth degree. We don't want to fold when we have positive expected value, ever.