aggressive with draws

[Guest]

Edited because the math major forgot how to add (pot sizes fixed)Here's a hand I played a few days ago that I'm still wondering if I played it correctly on the turn. It's from a site that doesn't support the converter so I'll transcribe as best as I can by hand.The game is 2/4 Limit HE, 10 handed. The table is generally loose and passive. Lots of crazy hands seeing a showdown but no maniacs at the table.Zara is CO+1 and is dealt A 8 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Zara calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checksI limp preflop hoping to get a good flop to continue. With this many limpers, and being in late position is this a reasonable spot to raise? Normally, I would only raise with A8s if either I'm the first in here or if I'm on the button.Pot = 5.5SB, 5 handedFlop: 6 9 7 BB bets, 2 folds, Zara raises, CO calls, BB 3-bets, Zara caps, CO callsThis is an amazing flop for me. I have an OESD, nut flush draw and 1 overcard for a total of 18 possible outs. I'm a favorite versus anything except a set and even then I'm only a 3 to 2 dog. There's no way I'm not putting in every bet I can here. The BB is an ok player that usually doesn't overplay hands majorly though he tends to overvalue certain hands. The CO is very loose and very passive. He will call to the river chasing almost anything and only folds then if he doesn't improve. After the BB 3-bets I start to wonder if he has a set afterall and will proceed very carefully if the board pairs.Pot=8.5BB, 3 handedTurn: J BB bets, Zara calls, CO callsAt this point I'm reasonably sure that the BB has a set. In retrospect, it's possible he made a weird straight or two pair, but for some reason those never occurred to me at the time though they're very possible.My question is should I raise here? One reason I didn't was to keep the CO in the hand as I wasn't worried about him beating me if I improved and I wanted the overcall which I didn't think I would get if I raised. I also stand a very real chance of getting 3-bet which I don't want to happen. I still have a large number of outs, with somewhere between 9 outs and 18 depending upon what I'm up against. Based on the action I don't think enough of these are live to warrant a raise since it's very likely to knock out the CO and get me 3-bet.Pot=11.5BB, 3 handedRiver: 5 BB bets, Zara raises, CO folds, BB 3-bets, Zara caps, BB callsI hit the nuts on the river and the BB is nice enough to cap it with me.I was surprised to find out what the BB hand, and I'm wondering what you all think he has based on this action.The main questions I have are if I should have raised preflop and if I should have raised on the turn.Zara

[Vade 0]

Nah, just limp preflop. If you were on the CO or button, I might lean towards the raise.Yeah, I think you should raise the turn and call a 3 bet. You did cap the flop, and you still have hellalotta outs

[custom36 5]

You played it well.

[Guest]

You played it well.

I know I played it well, I'm looking for feedback if I could have played it better. Also, what other people think about the different options preflop and on the turn.Zara

[custom36 5]

You played it well.

I know I played it well, I'm looking for feedback if I could have played it better. Also, what other people think about the different options preflop and on the turn.Zara

Oh, sorry. I think you played it the best way you could. Personally, I would have raised the turn, but I think just calling is probably the safest way to go.

[wrto4556 0]

raise that ace preflop!

[JaysonWeber 0]

Call pre-flop and Raise the turn.How did you get 18 outs?

[Vade 0]

I count 18 1/2 actually9 for the hearts, 8 for the OESD, and 1.5 for the Ace (1/2 of course)

[JaysonWeber 0]

I count 18 1/2 actually9 for the hearts, 8 for the OESD, and 1.5 for the Ace (1/2 of course)

Is there a method for dropping a few outs based on # of people in the pot though?

[Guest]

Call pre-flop and Raise the turn.How did you get 18 outs?

I was counting them all as clean. So 9 flush, 6 more straight and 3 A. Vs JJ I have all of these but vs. A9 I only have 15. Regardless, it's a ton and there are few hands I'm afraid of (though a set gives me some trouble.)How is raising the turn good? Since the BB kept leading at me I don't think I have more than 15 outs going to the river or I'm about a 2-1 dog. Quite often I'll have fewer though and even worse odds to win. I easily have the odds to call but there is little to no way I have the odds to raise especially since I stand a good chance of getting 3-bet. You of all people should know that putting in 1/2 the money with only a 1/3 chance to win is very bad. You want to see the river as cheaply as you can to see if you improve. Raising is only going to knock out potential profits.ZaraP.S. After running through the math in more detail I got the above conclusion and firmly decided raising is bad.

[wrto4556 0]

Raising the turn is horrible.Jayson, you got it backwards. Raise preflop, call the turn.

[Guest]

Raising the turn would be a bad IMHO. Only way Zara couldve gotten more out of this was to raise preflop.Unless I missed something Zara I dont think you mentioned it: what did the donk who capped the river have?

[Guest]

Unless I missed something Zara I dont think you mentioned it: what did the donk who capped the river have?

I was trying to get people to try and guess what he had. I was surprised. I'll make sure and post it before I go to bed though :twisted: Zara

[JaysonWeber 0]

too be honest Didn't really read it too indepth.The only thing I looked at was his # of outs. You shouldn't count 3 aces here, 1.5 outs for the aces.I thought he was in early position, I read Vades "If you were in CO or BUtton" So Figured him for UTG to MP... So yes I was assbackwards with the entire hand lol, Now that I know you're late position, If the games this loose raise it with A-8 with this many limpers... I think next time I'll read entire OP Post :slam:

[avsfan 0]

The game is 2/4 Limit HE, 10 handed. The table is generally loose and passive. Lots of crazy hands seeing a showdown but no maniacs at the table. Zara is CO+1 and is dealt A 8 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Zara calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks Wonderful play especially since you said loose and passive players. You want four or more callers. Imho. No need to discourage them.I limp preflop hoping to get a good flop to continue. With this many limpers, and being in late position is this a reasonable spot to raise? Normally, I would only raise with A8s if either I'm the first in here or if I'm on the button. Its also good to raise any time you will get four or more callers. Imho.Pot = 10.5SB, 5 handed Flop: 6 9 7 BB bets, 2 folds, Zara raises, CO calls, BB 3-bets, Zara caps, CO calls This is an amazing flop for me. I have an OESD, nut flush draw and 1 overcard for a total of 18 possible outs. I'm a favorite versus anything except a set and even then I'm only a 3 to 2 dog. There's no way I'm not putting in every bet I can here. The BB is an ok player that usually doesn't overplay hands majorly though he tends to overvalue certain hands. The CO is very loose and very passive. He will call to the river chasing almost anything and only folds then if he doesn't improve. After the BB 3-bets I start to wonder if he has a set afterall and will proceed very carefully if the board pairs. Oh yes go to town!Pot=11BB, 3 handed Turn: J BB bets, Zara calls, CO calls At this point I'm reasonably sure that the BB has a set. In retrospect, it's possible he made a weird straight or two pair, but for some reason those never occurred to me at the time though they're very possible. My question is should I raise here? One reason I didn't was to keep the CO in the hand as I wasn't worried about him beating me if I improved and I wanted the overcall which I didn't think I would get if I raised. I also stand a very real chance of getting 3-bet which I don't want to happen. I still have a large number of outs, with somewhere between 9 outs and 18 depending upon what I'm up against. Based on the action I don't think enough of these are live to warrant a raise since it's very likely to knock out the CO and get me 3-bet.I love going for the overcall here.Pot=14BB, 3 handed River: 5 BB bets, Zara raises, CO folds, BB 3-bets, Zara caps, BB calls I hit the nuts on the river and the BB is nice enough to cap it with me. I was surprised to find out what the BB hand, and I'm wondering what you all think he has based on this action. The main questions I have are if I should have raised preflop and if I should have raised on the turn. yahooo!If you want to raise them preflop it is ok with loose passive players. If you get more than four then weeeee! If not they are loose and passive players. .Imho.As general rule two players limping early is a good sign of possible looming volume pot. especially if you join in midway through. Imho If you want to go for the turn raise You are allmost breaking even or better on the three bet. So it is doable. Imho. I think the overcall turn play is the should and the raise is the prime variant. IMHOWas the hand a under flush?

[Guest]

Unless I missed something Zara I dont think you mentioned it: what did the donk who capped the river have?

I was trying to get people to try and guess what he had. I was surprised. I'll make sure and post it before I go to bed though :twisted: Zara

Based on play? I'm going on memory here because I'm far too lazy to go back and look; but I would THINK he had a set and got cute deciding to jam on the river. Crap, now I want to go back and look. You saying you were suprised by what he had? overplayed AJ?

[Guest]

Was the hand a under flush?

Why would he be 3-betting the flop and leading the turn then? what does he have, that is the question ZaraEdit: The hand he had is reasonable for the action, I just didn't expect it.

[avsfan 0]

if its 10 8 or 999.

[RISEorFall 0]

i see an arguement for raising the turn in that if CO has AK or AQ you clean up your Ace outs. But if you think the main agressor has a set then the A's aren't good anyway. I think there's more profit in calling to keep more people in if you hit the river tho. Just a thought for raising the turn.

[Guest]

i see an arguement for raising the turn in that if CO has AK or AQ you clean up your Ace outs. But if you think the main agressor has a set then the A's aren't good anyway. I think there's more profit in calling to keep more people in if you hit the river tho. Just a thought for raising the turn.

The CO was passive, but he wasn't so passive he wouldn't raise either of those preflop. A10 is slightly possible though. I like the reasoning, just not applicable to this particular donkey. Plus, even if it does, I don't have enough odds to hit the A for the cleaning up to be worth it. I'm going to bed now, so I'll tell you what the BB had.It was K J . He should have raised preflop IMO but otherwise he played it fine. Other than my hand or a set, K J is at worst a coin flip against almost any other hand. With this in mind, him leading and 3-betting the flop are very reasonable, and I would probably play it the same way.On the turn, he makes top pair 2nd kicker, so it's more than reasonable for him to lead at the pot again. as he's probably way of the vast majority of hands (including mine btw) and even if he isn't he still has the flush draw. The river unfortunately brought the flush and it's more than reasonable for him to bet like he did with the 2nd nuts.The mistake I made is I didn't give the guy enough credit to realize the overcards and flush draw is HUGE drawing hand so I didn't think he could 3-bet with a hand that "weak". In part this saved me because otherwise I might have raised the turn thinking my A high could be good.Zara

[amarillotg 0]

for the people that recomend a CR PF: is this to isolate the early position limpers?

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I count 18 1/2 actually9 for the hearts, 8 for the OESD, and 1.5 for the Ace (1/2 of course)

actually its 9 for the flush 6 for the straight and 3 for the ace(if its good)and for the reocrd im putting the bb on J7 of hearts

[wrto4556 0]

for the people that recomend a CR PF: is this to isolate the early position limpers?

not a check/raise preflop...just a raise. It's for value.