10 replies to this topic

[DrZoidberg]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q , A .
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, Hero raises to t80, 4 folds, BB calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t250) A , 4 , T (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets t80, Hero raises to t200, BB folds, MP1 calls t120.

Turn: (t650) Q (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets t300, MP1 raises to t600, Hero?

As it's first hand no reads on villian, i bet half the pot on the turn as a feeler for the flush, should I have bet more, or is the minraise enough of an indication? do we stack off here every time, or let it go without any reads?

[Tration101]

Personally i don't like to get involved in huge pots right from the start because of these types of situations. Even with a premo hand like A-Q, i try to control the pot with some smaller raises. When i have more reads on the people around me, then i'm more likely to move some chips around.

But in this situation i would have probably laid it down just because the best case scenario is he'll have some K-10 with 1 club...considering he needed to have something to call the raise and then bet out on the flop. So he'll have the flush and straight draw..but ur ahead still.

More realistically i see him have a K-J or the made flush. Thats what i would have put him on and thats why i'd fold.

The only way i could have call/raised all in is if i put him on overplaying a weaker ace (which is very possible), but at this point you have no idea how he plays.

Its like a 60(folding)-40(all-in) decision for me. But it wasn't a bad play either way.

[Cappy37]

Villain has KJ here precisely never.

Villain likely needs two high clubs to be a. ) able to limp/call raise PF and b. ) to be putting this move on us now.

Ace and Queen of clubs are on the board... That leaves a King, Jack, and Ten, two of which likely needs to be in his hand.

I'd never live with myself folding here. He's repping clubs/semi bluffin with king of clubs far more often than he's got the goods.

I'd flat call turn to induce a river shove if a fourth club doesn't come. If he checks river, enjoy the free showdown. If he shoves river: that's the best possible scenario for you to call and win his chips, since you add so many bluffs/missed hand possibilities to his range.

Why not shove on turn? Oddly enough, shoving turn only gets called by naked king of clubs, possibly AT/A4, or a flush. Flatting turn and checking behind/calling shove on river gives you the best chance to win the hand, plus you'll never fold out something beating you on turn. Almost anything you can beat folds, and anything that has you bested beats you into the pot.

You also add in the possibility that you are on the single card flush draw, so if the river bricks, and he *has* the flush, he could potentially feel he needs to "sell you the nuts" and put out, say, three to four hundred chips, since you might have an ace with a club kicker, but are not likely to call a shove. I know, small consolation: but hey, you're still in the tourney with a few chips and the blinds still small.

Well, that's how I'd play it.

[copernicus]

Villain has KJ here precisely never.

Villain likely needs two high clubs to be a. ) able to limp/call raise PF and b. ) to be putting this move on us now.

Ace and Queen of clubs are on the board... That leaves a King, Jack, and Ten, two of which likely needs to be in his hand.

I'd never live with myself folding here. He's repping clubs/semi bluffin with king of clubs far more often than he's got the goods.

I'd flat call turn to induce a river shove if a fourth club doesn't come. If he checks river, enjoy the free showdown. If he shoves river: that's the best possible scenario for you to call and win his chips, since you add so many bluffs/missed hand possibilities to his range.

Why not shove on turn? Oddly enough, shoving turn only gets called by naked king of clubs, possibly AT/A4, or a flush. Flatting turn and checking behind/calling shove on river gives you the best chance to win the hand, plus you'll never fold out something beating you on turn. Almost anything you can beat folds, and anything that has you bested beats you into the pot.

You also add in the possibility that you are on the single card flush draw, so if the river bricks, and he *has* the flush, he could potentially feel he needs to "sell you the nuts" and put out, say, three to four hundred chips, since you might have an ace with a club kicker, but are not likely to call a shove. I know, small consolation: but hey, you're still in the tourney with a few chips and the blinds still small.

Well, that's how I'd play it too.

^^^^

[Cappy37]

^^^^

omg.. I'm 2 for 2.. Did I finally become good at poker?

[copernicus]

omg.. I'm 2 for 2.. Did I finally become good at poker?

and i take full credit for your steep learning curve.

[Berwatchey]

most everyone else seems to think your ahead here, but i'm pretty sure you are not.

at best i think your looking at something like KQ with him haveing the K of clubs.

maby q 10. and k 10

but thats pretty much the only 2 hands i see villian taking this line with that you beat.

your even drawing slim to a sissy flush....

i still think you prolly hafta call though.

edit: the KJ of clubs would account for villians preflop call preflop and on the flop, so saying villian never has kj in this spot is simply not true. not saying its likely, just not impossible.

[JasonIDK]

most everyone else seems to think your ahead here, but i'm pretty sure you are not.

at best i think your looking at something like KQ with him haveing the K of clubs.

maby q 10. and k 10

but thats pretty much the only 2 hands i see villian taking this line with that you beat.

your even drawing slim to a sissy flush....

i still think you prolly hafta call though.

edit: the KJ of clubs would account for villians preflop call preflop and on the flop, so saying villian never has kj in this spot is simply not true. not saying its likely, just not impossible.

He's not check min raising with Ace ten or ace 4 with this board, so he doesn't have those hands.

He is either semi-bluffing with like a KcTx or he's already there (KcTc, perhaps?). I'd put him on the flush most of the time here. I would have checked this turn to keep the pot small and called a value bet on a river brick. If you get check re-raised, you're in for a tough decision at the earliest blind level.

[Solar]

No one else seems to want to say it, but surely your raise on the flop was too small. He donked into the flop, so you let him have good odds to call your raise with his flush draw, and then bet half the pot at him when he made it? As played I probably fold, looks too much like a flush. Next time make it 350+ on the flop and you wont have this problem.

[cdipierr]

If it's the first hand and you have no reads, why not just check behind on the turn? Yeah, it's a weak play to do all the time, but here, since we have no idea if the guy is a nit or a LAGtard, check behind turn. If river is meaningless, call a reasonable bet. If river is scary you can fold. If river boats you up, you can punish the made flush.

Now, later in the tourney it's a different decision. Here, though, worst case scenario, you're down like 20% of your stack on hand 1. Plenty of room to play later even if you got bluffed here.

[Jam-Fly]

check behind on turn. if a club comes, you can fold, if a club doesn't come, you can call bet from villain.


in fact, now that I think of it, that bet on the turn is terrible imo. You don't want to get into marginal spots early in a STT. In an MTT, it's debatable as to whether or not you want to protect your hand, but in a STT, you simply can't afford to.

If he does have a club, your giving him a 20% chance to catch up. So the pot is 650 on the flop. Let's assume checking wins you the pot 80% of the time when a non club comes, and loses you the pot when a club does come (he probably has at least two other outs, but we'll say that the times he outdraws you with the other two outs, will cancel out with the times he bluffs you on the river.). So, if he has one club, a check will win 650 80% of the time = 520. So basically, you're giving up 130 in equity by checking, if he does in fact have one club.
So is it worth betting 300, to protect against 130 lost in equity?

The downside of betting 300:
-When he has a flush, you cost yourself at least 300, whereas if you checked, you'll probably lose at most 300 when he value bets river. You also don't lose any when another club comes on river.
-You lose the bluff-river bet from villain
-You open up the possibility of being bluffed off the hand by some like KcTx
-If he has a flush, you don't get a free 4 outer.

Upside:
-You protect your hand if he has one club. ie you gain 130 in equity/avoid losing 130 in equity, if he has one club.

IMO, checking is MUCH better.

Anyway, as played, I can't rly see us folding. You're getting what, 2.5-1 about, prob a little less. I think that price is just about good enough to justify a call.