13 replies to this topic

[antistuff]

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/tip-email-149....php?utm_id=356


what if the guy was holding a8? he just got you to put over half your stack drawing dead, dummy face.

i've spent a lot of time thinking about some of the moves bad players make. i've done this because they annoy me so much. the fact that they annoy sent of alarm bells in my head that there is probably a reason why they annoy me.

the next time some really bad player does something stupid that makes you fold a hand or lose a big pot and youre thinking what a retard think a little harder.

i will say though that you should be careful not to fall into a pattern of perpetual fancy play syndrome. there is a time and a place for doing stupid things.

[copernicus]

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/tip-email-149....php?utm_id=356
what if the guy was holding a8? he just got you to put over half your stack drawing dead, dummy face.

i've spent a lot of time thinking about some of the moves bad players make. i've done this because they annoy me so much. the fact that they annoy sent of alarm bells in my head that there is probably a reason why they annoy me.

the next time some really bad player does something stupid that makes you fold a hand or lose a big pot and youre thinking what a retard think a little harder.

i will say though that you should be careful not to fall into a pattern of perpetual fancy play syndrome. there is a time and a place for doing stupid things.

GamblerAB does tend toward FPS and underestimating his opponents strength. Ive owned him 4 times and sucked out on him 1 time (all with position, admittedly).

However, I think he's right with this article. Villain is on a missed draw 90% of the time and Ax 10% of the time (at worst). Firing on the river is definitiely +EV.

[trystero]

To be fair his article's aimed toward beginners, and beginners don't really think about poker, or what makes it profitable. Instead they have an arsenal of "moves" which they employ in any given situation. When they flop top pair, or a draw, or they want to bluff, they use the almighty minraise. Usually it's the worst move in poker. Judging by his audience, Aaron's article doesn't seem too bad; a good general rule is to not minraise.

But the problem with his article, you're right, is its example. It doesn't really illustrate what Bartley wants it to. In that spot, the minraise could've convinced him that "this guy's a donk" and that he should move in on the turn. Honestly I'd expect to see an ace here quite often (I guess villain was trying to steal cheaply with a mid pocket pair here). A MUCH better example would be the classic mistake of minraising with aces. You open to $12 in a 2/4 game with 88, and AA raises to $24. Now this is obviously a big mistake, and one which many beginners - the target audience of this article - will indeed make. A competent poker author will let them know WHY it's a mistake.

[copernicus]

To be fair his article's aimed toward beginners, and beginners don't really think about poker, or what makes it profitable. Instead they have an arsenal of "moves" which they employ in any given situation. When they flop top pair, or a draw, or they want to bluff, they use the almighty minraise. Usually it's the worst move in poker. Judging by his audience, Aaron's article doesn't seem too bad; a good general rule is to not minraise.

But the problem with his article, you're right, is its example. It doesn't really illustrate what Bartley wants it to. In that spot, the minraise could've convinced him that "this guy's a donk" and that he should move in on the turn. Honestly I'd expect to see an ace here quite often (I guess villain was trying to steal cheaply with a mid pocket pair here). A MUCH better example would be the classic mistake of minraising with aces. You open to $12 in a 2/4 game with 88, and AA raises to $24. Now this is obviously a huge mistake, and one which many beginners - the target audience of this article - will indeed make.

An A may min-check raise, and an A may check the turn, but an A is almost never checking the river after no betting on the turn. He cant count on you to bet, and wants more value than the pot after the flop. Checking both streets with an A would be horrendous play.

[trystero]

An A may min-check raise, and an A may check the turn, but an A is almost never checking the river after no betting on the turn. He cant count on you to bet, and wants more value than the pot after the flop. Checking both streets with an A would be horrendous play.

Action takes place on the turn, NOT the river, my friend.

The turn brought a blank. If he came out betting he obviously has a strong hand because there was no reason for him to bluff after I called his raise on the flop. He checked. There was a slight chance he was trying to play his hand super tricky, but it was unlikely.

People who min-check-raise either want to protect or get value from their hand, and will usually come out betting the next street. His check told me that he was most likely on the draw, so I decided to bet about half of my entire stack. This showed him I wasn’t folding to anything and the only way he could raise was if he was extremely confident he had the best hand.

[Acid_Knight]

1. Mostly he's right
2. The check/minraise is awesome if you know how your opponent will react and why you're doing it, especially HU.
3. Any of the Full Tilt Pro advice is targeted mostly to beginners. I doubt many guys who understand the game are reading that to better themselves too often.

[Sheiky]

4. Apparently a lot of them are ghost written

[antistuff]

However, I think he's right with this article. Villain is on a missed draw 90% of the time and Ax 10% of the time (at worst). Firing on the river is definitiely +EV.

its obviously villain dependent, but if you put me on that range here you're going to win a bunch of small pots and lose some huge ones and i will come out way ahead.

all because i did something that you automatically consider stupid without really thinking about what i might be thinking.

i bolded that last part because i think it explains what i wanted to much better than i did previously.

i think that i could minraise that flop with 100% of my range if i knew that you were going to fire half your stack on the turn no matter what. and if i knew you might be doing this with hands like king high, letting me stack you with hands like a4 here, well gee golly mister thanks for the free lunch.

A MUCH better example would be the classic mistake of minraising with aces. You open to $12 in a 2/4 game with 88, and AA raises to $24. Now this is obviously a big mistake, and one which many beginners - the target audience of this article - will indeed make. A competent poker author will let them know WHY it's a mistake.

yep. so maybe my point is actually "post flop play in big bet poker is too complicated to make hard and fast rules for, since there are always places to find exceptions to them and break these rules".



the little nuances of my ideas here as they relate to nlhe might somewhat off as i generally consider that my worst game, but i feel that as far as big bet poker in general is concerned i am mostly right.

[copernicus]

Action takes place on the turn, NOT the river, my friend.

My bad...that does make the play much more speculative and more typical of Bartley.

[jmbreslin]

If his opponent is inexperienced enough to be using the check-minraise inappropriately with a draw here, won't his opponent also miss the significance of his half-stack bet on the turn? If so, there is no need to risk half his stack. All he needs to do is make a bet that looks large enough to convince the donkey to give up on his hand. It strikes me as being one of those hand analyses where the writer's advice assumes that the villain is both a donkey and a perceptive player at the same time.

[antistuff]

My bad...that does make the play much more speculative and more typical of Bartley.

you have experience playing with this guy?


please share in as far as its relevance to this hand.

[Cappy37]

"I shoved in half my stack to win a tiny pot with King-high".

While it's not the worst article I've ever read, it didn't help me reach any new revelations, either.

The main question I have is his vauge language: "I was playing in a tournament recently".

Oh really, big boy? Turbo? Regular? Online? Live? Deep Stacked? Who are you trying to help with this advice in the first place? You need to identify your audience a lil', me thinks.

[copernicus]

you have experience playing with this guy?
please share in as far as its relevance to this hand.

yes, a lot of experience given random seating in online tourneys...i've been to his immediate left 5 times. He has an enormous ego and loves to try and push you off a hand on the turn. In the 5 against him I picked off 2 of his bluffs with good but not great hands, had monsters two times, and sucked out once with a 2 outer...he had much trouble handling that!

[antistuff]

"I shoved in half my stack to win a tiny pot with King-high".

While it's not the worst article I've ever read, it didn't help me reach any new revelations, either.

The main question I have is his vauge language: "I was playing in a tournament recently".

Oh really, big boy? Turbo? Regular? Online? Live? Deep Stacked? Who are you trying to help with this advice in the first place? You need to identify your audience a lil', me thinks.

the new revelation that his article gives is "how to get somebody to put half their stack in drawing dead with king high by doing something that supposedly looks stupid"

yes, a lot of experience given random seating in online tourneys...i've been to his immediate left 5 times. He has an enormous ego and loves to try and push you off a hand on the turn. In the 5 against him I picked off 2 of his bluffs with good but not great hands, had monsters two times, and sucked out once with a 2 outer...he had much trouble handling that!

and then he writes a guide on how to let other people do the same thing to him.

and he is a full tilt poker pro.

i love this game.