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#41 Sheiky

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 12:53 PM

Not sure why i'm even debating a hand that was posted for pure novelty value, but ok...Flop: with a gutshot and possible pair outs against a min bet, I don't think calling's bad at all, sure I could raise the flop, but it's not mandatory and the reason i'm playing a $2 turbo is to not play every hand as i normaly do. It may not be the highest EV line, but in a HU match there's virtualy no way to evaluate such a thing and I think calling is a perfectly reasonable playTurn: I normaly just fold here and that's probably best, i admit, but it occured to me that a lot of players are just going to insta bet that turn whatever it is because my flop calling range is so wide, so i decided to continue with the hand. I could have raised the turn yeh, but i could also flat the turn and evaluate his river bet/check and decide if he acctualy had what he was representing which could possibly save me money if he bets something on the river that acctualy looks like he has a king.River: He insta bet weak, i deduced that there was a high probability of him folding if I shoved, so i shoved, and he folded. I'm not going to argue conclusively that it's 100% the best option as A) I don't neccesarily think it is and B) HU is so dependent that there's no 100% best line anyway, but even though it looks weird I don't it's that horrible.

#42 Sheiky

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 12:57 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 9:36 PM, said:

Raise the flop most of the time in position. I don't really love the naked float on the two tone board unless you have a better handle on what he donks with. On the turn, raise or fold. Calling is bad for so many reasons inlcuding the fact that it's slightly more likely he has a real hand since he's betting twice, you have no hand, and you look weak so he's likely to bluff the river with his entire range meaning that you have to put your stack at risk to make a bluff.When you get to the river, you're shoving and you're repping basically nothing since there's like no way you don't raise the flop/turn with KK and you prob raise the flop with 8x. Getting fancy is fine, but have a reason to do it. Randomly double floating donks in $2 sngs is probably never gonna be profitable. The whole idea of this hand is spewriffic.Edit: I just noticed the flop is monotone. For god's sake fold the flop or raise him. It's like raising>folding>calling AINEC. The turn is about the same ranking. Calling is like the worst option by far on each street.
Reason being - He bet weak and i really felt he'd fold, i realise that i'm repping nothing, but against someone who can't hand read, I don't think that matters a ton.

#43 ROBBBIGG

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 12:58 PM

it's actually really really bad. you called down with little equity and then made a shove that either made you a small amount of chips or cost you your full stack. you didn't really rep much either, so your bluff doesn't make sense.i just don't get posting hands played poorly on a forum where people discuss how hands are played and then when winning higher stakes players explain why it's bad responding, saying "nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhh"
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#44 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:05 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 1:53 PM, said:

Not sure why i'm even debating a hand that was posted for pure novelty value, but ok...Flop: with a gutshot and possible pair outs against a min bet, I don't think calling's bad at all, sure I could raise the flop, but it's not mandatory and the reason i'm playing a $2 turbo is to not play every hand as i normaly do. It may not be the highest EV line, but in a HU match there's virtualy no way to evaluate such a thing and I think calling is a perfectly reasonable playTurn: I normaly just fold here and that's probably best, i admit, but it occured to me that a lot of players are just going to insta bet that turn whatever it is because my flop calling range is so wide, so i decided to continue with the hand. I could have raised the turn yeh, but i could also flat the turn and evaluate his river bet/check and decide if he acctualy had what he was representing which could possibly save me money if he bets something on the river that acctualy looks like he has a king.River: He insta bet weak, i deduced that there was a high probability of him folding if I shoved, so i shoved, and he folded. I'm not going to argue conclusively that it's 100% the best option as A) I don't neccesarily think it is and B) HU is so dependent that there's no 100% best line anyway, but even though it looks weird I don't it's that horrible.
You posted a hand where you probably misplayed every postflop street, so we're critiquing.On a suited board where you have none of that suit, you should probably never pay to draw to straights, especially gutshots, especially to a player who's donking into you. Realize that your hand has virtually no value and bluff raise or fold.On the turn, give up please. You're not really repping much of anything by calling since his bets are so small and if you did flop a flush, you'd be raising the turn for sure since you NEED to get value somewhere. You can't beat top pair. You have virtually no draws. You could be drawing dead. There is only the slightest of reasonable arguments to be made for floating the flop, but none of those exist on the turn.The river - he looks weak, so you shove. You're repping nothing, but he didn't make a hand, so he folds.The thing that you're missing in all of this is that you know nothing about him. Yes, he knows nothing about you either, but I'm assuming that in a $2 sng you're gonna be the superior player and you're the one who's supposed to be thinking of these things, and not him. You should be running elaborate bluffs like this about every 18 years and it should be against a player who you know is taking this line with _________ and if X falls on the turn, he's gonna ____________ and if Y falls on the turn he's gonna ______________ and if you call he's gonna _____________ and if you raise, he's gonna __________. You don't know any of these things about him. I understand that it's a $2 sng and the $$ is unimportant, but the reality is that a line this should virtually never ever be taken, so there's not much use in experimenting with it.

#45 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:06 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 1:57 PM, said:

Reason being - He bet weak and i really felt he'd fold, i realise that i'm repping nothing, but against someone who can't hand read, I don't think that matters a ton.
Ok, so he can't read hands. So you're gonna try and make the best hand with a naked gutshot on a monotone flop in order to beat him?Also, if you think he's weak and will fold raise the flop. If you still think he's weak on the turn, raise the turn. Calling in these spots makes no sense since you have like zero equity in this pot vs any range he's gonna show up with basically.

#46 Sheiky

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:13 PM

View PostROBBBIGG, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 9:58 PM, said:

it's actually really really bad. you called down with little equity and then made a shove that either made you a small amount of chips or cost you your full stack. you didn't really rep much either, so your bluff doesn't make sense.i just don't get posting hands played poorly on a forum where people discuss how hands are played and then when winning higher stakes players explain why it's bad responding, saying "nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhh"
There's like a billion bad beat/interesting/badly played hands that get posted on these forums every month that are there solely for entertainment/whining/amusement purposes and not to so people can ask how to play a hand differently.I played a hand badly, i think it's cool cause i bluffed someone succesfuly which I never ever do normaly so i look for a thread to post it in, hey there's the HU thread! I'l post it there. If i really wanted strategy advice on the hand I would probably have played it in a more authodox manner and asked when i posted it what part of the hand i wanted advice on.As it is people commented, I have no problem with that as it's a discussion forum and whatnot, i'll coment back and try to defend the seemingly indefensible because i feel like it, and - Don't hate me - don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is and even if it is because i'm stubborn it creates good discussion anyway. I don't see where in my replies i said anything relating to 'nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhhhhh' which given that it's HU is more than a half valid point anyway.And you guys are all forgetting that the fact he folded which makes me A) Right B ) You all wrong and C) The greatest No Limit texas hold em HU player around.

#47 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:18 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 2:13 PM, said:

There's like a billion bad beat/interesting/badly played hands that get posted on these forums every month that are there solely for entertainment/whining/amusement purposes and not to so people can ask how to play a hand differently.I played a hand badly, i think it's cool cause i bluffed someone succesfuly which I never ever do normaly so i look for a thread to post it in, hey there's the HU thread! I'l post it there. If i really wanted strategy advice on the hand I would probably have played it in a more authodox manner and asked when i posted it what part of the hand i wanted advice on.As it is people commented, I have no problem with that as it's a discussion forum and whatnot, i'll coment back and try to defend the seemingly indefensible because i feel like it, and - Don't hate me - don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is and even if it is because i'm stubborn it creates good discussion anyway. I don't see where in my replies i said anything relating to 'nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhhhhh' which given that it's HU is more than a half valid point anyway.And you guys are all forgetting that the fact he folded which makes me A) Right B ) You all wrong and C) The greatest No Limit texas hold em HU player around.
FWIW, the only place you get to post hands and not expect criticism is in the BBF. This thread is specifically a strat thread (per Jay's OP) in a strat forum, so that's what we're doing here.

#48 Sheiky

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:18 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 10:05 PM, said:

The thing that you're missing in all of this is that you know nothing about him. Yes, he knows nothing about you either, but I'm assuming that in a $2 sng you're gonna be the superior player and you're the one who's supposed to be thinking of these things, and not him. You should be running elaborate bluffs like this about every 18 years and it should be against a player who you know is taking this line with _________ and if X falls on the turn, he's gonna ____________ and if Y falls on the turn he's gonna ______________ and if you call he's gonna _____________ and if you raise, he's gonna __________. You don't know any of these things about him. I understand that it's a $2 sng and the $$ is unimportant, but the reality is that a line this should virtually never ever be taken, so there's not much use in experimenting with it.
Why thank you!And this is literaly the once in 18 years i bluff somebody, i'm like the nittiest post flop player ever and I rarely make any kind of non standard play .

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Ok, so he can't read hands. So you're gonna try and make the best hand with a naked gutshot on a monotone flop in order to beat him?Also, if you think he's weak and will fold raise the flop. If you still think he's weak on the turn, raise the turn. Calling in these spots makes no sense since you have like zero equity in this pot vs any range he's gonna show up with basically.
FWIW flop is diamond diamond heart

#49 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:21 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 2:18 PM, said:

FWIW flop is diamond diamond heart
GAH, read it right the first time. It changes very little about what I said except it makes the flop float marginally better. The turn is still just as bad :club:

#50 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:24 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 2:18 PM, said:

I rarely make any kind of non standard play .
It really does sound like you're overly defensive. It's just a bad play. If you posted it and said "LOL, I play so bad" which is something I hear from Jay once a day (I try and keep up with him) then I doubt we'd really be critiquing. The fact is that it's not non-standard, it's just bad. There's plenty of room to be creative. If you wanted to minraise his flop lead. Minraise his turn lead and then shove the river, it'd be better. If you wanted to float the flop, minraise the turn and bet the river, it'd be better. If you wanted to raise his flop bet, CIB on the turn and shove over his river lead, it'd be better. Play with those lines. Don't play with ones that involve you calling multiple streets with little or no equity and then shoving your stack into the pot in a spot where you'll never have a credible hand to rep.That's all .

#51 Naismith

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 04:58 PM

For the record, I almost always raise the flop, but I do sometimes float and delay my bluff to the turn. One constant is that I always, always bluff in this spot. :club:
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#52 LJB723

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:02 PM

I know this is a tourney but its still hu and no-one is looking at the tournament forum right now. Tell me this is beyond standard please...?CryptologicNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $7/$152 playersConverterStack sizes:Hero: $1455BB: $1545Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with Q :club: Q :D Hero raises to $45, BB calls.Flop: 9 :D 5 :D 2 :4h ($90, 2 players)BB bets $15, Hero raises to $90, BB calls.Turn: 6 :ts ($270, 2 players)BB bets $15, Hero raises to $300, BB calls.River: 3 :5c ($870, 2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $600, BB raises all-in $1110, Hero calls all-in $420.Uncalled bets: $90 returned to BB.Results:Final pot: $2910This hand has now been in 3 different threads. Copernicus, who I think is a very good poster doesn't like it and reckons I should flat the turn. That seems awful to me. Thoughts from the HU buffs?
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#53 No_Neck

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:04 PM

View PostLJB723, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 9:02 PM, said:

I know this is a tourney but its still hu and no-one is looking at the tournament forum right now. Tell me this is beyond standard please...?CryptologicNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $7/$152 playersConverterStack sizes:Hero: $1455BB: $1545Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with Q :club: Q :D Hero raises to $45, BB calls.Flop: 9 :D 5 :D 2 :4h ($90, 2 players)BB bets $15, Hero raises to $90, BB calls.Turn: 6 :ts ($270, 2 players)BB bets $15, Hero raises to $300, BB calls.River: 3 :5c ($870, 2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $600, BB raises all-in $1110, Hero calls all-in $420.Uncalled bets: $90 returned to BB.Results:Final pot: $2910This hand has now been in 3 different threads. Copernicus, who I think is a very good poster doesn't like it and reckons I should flat the turn. That seems awful to me. Thoughts from the HU buffs?
I am weaker than most of the aggrotards that post here... but I check the river

#54 trystero

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:15 AM

Yup, check behind on turn. No sensible pair makes it to the river. I assume we'll see two pair combinations the most, and every so often a set or 34.Flatting turn makes no sense; when someone donks the minimum into me, and I planned on betting anyway, I view it as a check and raise it up 99% of the time - so I'm getting value out of weaker hands and also forcing him to define his own because calling a raise demands strength.

#55 Naismith

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:38 AM

View Posttrystero, on Wednesday, June 4th, 2008, 8:15 AM, said:

...when someone donks the minimum into me, and I planned on betting anyway, I view it as a check and raise it up 99% of the time - so I'm getting value out of weaker hands and also forcing him to define his own because calling a raise demands strength.
I agree with this, sort of. When someone bets the minimum into me, I view it as weaker than a check and raise it up a little more than 99% of the time.
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#56 tskillz187

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:43 AM

I played HU this morning against two shorts and made $13. None of the information in these pages was helpful. It was all me baby.
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#57 Acid_Knight

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:24 PM

View PostLJB723, on Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 6:02 PM, said:

This hand has now been in 3 different threads. Copernicus, who I think is a very good poster doesn't like it and reckons I should flat the turn. That seems awful to me. Thoughts from the HU buffs?
Flatting the turn would be criminally bad given your hand and the board texture.The river sucks balls when he c/r because you're virtually never winning. I think I bet smaller on the river because the hands that you want a call from have a hard time calling a bet that big anyway, and when he does c/r, it makes more sense to fold your hand.

#58 shinzilla

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 03:21 PM

http://www.cardrunne...ession_id=49663Tear me apart. I know the first 77 hand is terrible... I don't know what I was thinking.
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#59 LJB723

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 03:54 PM

View Postshinzilla, on Friday, June 6th, 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

http://www.cardrunne...ession_id=49663Tear me apart. I know the first 77 hand is terrible... I don't know what I was thinking.
Meh, you were open ended on the turn to go with a pair on an otherwise safe board. I think you need to find a second bullet. Granted I didn't look at every hand but a lot of small pots were lost because you gave up your bluff on the turn. He's going to find it hard to call a 2nd bet with bottom pair.EDIT: Just saw J9 hand when he bet pot on the river after you bet twice, :club:
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#60 SlapStick

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 01:04 AM

First, yay for this thread, about time. Acid, finally watched your video, good stuff, would happily watch more. Sometimes you think so fast it was a bit hard to grasp some of your thinking behind hands but it was a great video.Right people, I have some questions.Took down a staked 4.40 so gave 3 stakes and jumped onto heads up. Obviously ridiculous br, but well, I didnt really care as I have just been playing live and getting money online is a headache in Israel and I can't play heads up live.So I went to heads up. Played 2 short stackers busted both, but I have these questions. One was standard not folding much player, he was limping continously from the button which we like, but when I was out of position I was being pretty passive in these spots. Unless I made a hand, I was pretty much check folding. If he bet his bluff bet amount, I'd re-raise or call and attack on the turn but asides from that, I was pretty much checking it away without much resistance, is this ok?When he limps from the button and is most likely calling raises, are we raising with 33 and 22 here? K j?I c-bet every hand I raised, completely standard agaisnt donks, right?Do you re-load automatically? . Down 5bbs, or 10 bbs etc. I was doing it, as it makes sense, but just wondering. If someones calling every raise and is a station afterwards, we just shore up and play tight, or raise to take it down when he misses the flop.And then this is a vent post of a hand that busted me, as never endingly argued out above, I'm fine with criticism as I played terrible. I decided to mix it up, its the first time I haven't c-bet the flop. Player seems competent, raises every button but has been calling a lot more of my raises from oop. Went on a bit of a rush and I doubled him up with AA losing to J 10, he called a 3-bet and made trips on the flop.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (2 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($98.50)Sham Shaft ($68.05)Preflop: Sham Shaft is Button with JPosted Image, JPosted Image. Sham Shaft raises to $1.5, BB calls $1.Flop: ($3) JPosted Image, 7Posted Image, 4Posted Image (2 players)BB checks, Sham Shaft checks.Turn: ($3) 9Posted Image (2 players)BB checks, Sham Shaft checks.River: ($3) 5Posted Image (2 players)BB bets $3.5, Sham Shaft raises to $9, BB raises to $97, Sham Shaft calls $57.55 (All-In).Final Pot: $136.10Results in white below: BB has 3d 8d (flush, nine high). Sham Shaft has Jh Js (three of a kind, jacks). Outcome: BB wins $166.55. I realise its absolutely terrible, this was me "mixing it up" then I decided to let it go to the river, diamonds scared and he called me down for 2 big bluffs recently so I figured I could make some at the end over betting or something, then he bet in to me.Flop and turn terrible, I cant really be ahead on river.When he went all in I sighed, and said "fine I'll fold" clicked time bank, checked the cashier, none left, I had reloaded, then as I sighed, I told myself he has two pair and figures me for something like ace 9 or over pair, 2 seconds later I was groaning at myself.Just one of those you know you have to fold things, but a 2 second blood rush, and the fact you can win by pressing call gets you.So theres some questions and feel free to destroy me with the hand, its just the river bet that gets me. He hadn't done it once, one of the reasons I was folding.....
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