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#1 Naismith

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:22 PM

I think discussing heads up is difficult to do in a hand-by-hand basis. I think we can get some good discussion going about styles and theories and whatever in this thread. I know there are at least three regulars making a living playing HU in strat (I'm counting Acid who is on the brink of TP/MM) and a couple of occasional strat guest stars that are HU studs.I'm getting a few hands in now, but I'll come back later and kind of outline my style and explain how and why I prey on short stack donks exclusively.
Peace,
Jay



#2 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:36 PM

Minraise button PF every time/thread
QUOTE (NoBBiR @ Monday, August 11th, 2008, 7:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If god didn't want that particular law broken, he had no business making those that big.

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#3 AimHigher

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:57 PM

You know, I'd be interested to see if there is any way we could appeal to the powers that be to start a HU strat forum.Powers that be, can you hear me?

#4 Naismith

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:12 PM

Okay, a little background before I get started. As recently as November, I still sort-of worked for a living. I mean, I never really did much, but I was pretty sick of it. It was Zach who convinced me to put money online and make a legitimate run at it. I had intended to put 3k on, but could only do so at a clip of 750 per day. The first day, though, I played too big (as I often do) and ran it up pretty quickly.I was mixing 400NL 6-max and lower stakes HU and not doing particularly well at the latter. For a while, I stuck with 6-max and then one night, I lost my mind, lost a bunch of money and basically shut it all down. I bounced back shortly after by committing to becoming a winning HU player. This desire was magnified when I convinced one of my best friends to quit his job and play poker for a living.I talked to a variety of FCP'ers that I knew, that were good winning players, and developed a short stack style.My main weaknesses as a poker player:1) Getting crushed and playing too long/too high trying to get it back.2) Not making big folds.The style I utilize pretty much takes care of both issues. I play people that buy in for 40-60 blinds. I will very infrequently play up to 75 if I think the player has all of their money in play since scared poker plays into my strategy very well.I raise almost all buttons and very infrequently play OOP. I run 48/44 which I think is fairly in line with the other HU specialists on here. I used to play around 58/55 and have no idea when it dropped. Because of the short stacked opponents, I have to play more of a passive style than, say, Acid or Jordan might play in their games.Essentially, if I open and get 3-bet, I can (almost) *never 4-bet bluff*. My opponents essentially decide pretty quickly in a hand whether they intend to put all of their chips in the middle or not. Since I play mostly in position, I get to control the pot size until I'm ready to get it all in.The majority of time, I just raise them, they call (because that's what bad players do) and then check-fold the flops. Ideally, I grind them down to half their original buy in and then gamble with them. Sometimes they double, sometimes they don't. Regardless, you're essentially freerolling them with all of the money they called off hopelessly OOP.Players do win. They do hit and run (which doesn't bother me much). But when you do lose, you don't lose very much because they never have very much. It can be a boring, tedious style, but it is extremely low variance and very, very profitable. I'm winning at 15.28 bb/100 over the last 25,000 hands since I created a new PT database playing this style and my big losing days have always come when I've abandoned the strategy to chase money.
Peace,
Jay



#5 cwik

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:15 PM

humm... this thread has the potential to get into the very tight rotation of threads I actually check on FCP, including Bored at Work, Challege Thread, and Goals Thread.

#6 No_Neck

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:35 PM

It is amazing how often you can find people that will call almost every raise from the button, and just pound the crap out of them.Seat 6 - OOODANNYBOY ($52.72 in chips)Seat 4 - IGOTSPADES ($53.52 in chips)OOODANNYBOY - Posts small blind $0.25IGOTSPADES - Posts big blind $0.50*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to OOODANNYBOY [7 :heart: 5 :club: ] OOODANNYBOY - Raises $1.25 to $1.50IGOTSPADES - Calls $1*** FLOP *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $2IGOTSPADES - Calls $2*** TURN *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $4IGOTSPADES - Calls $4*** RIVER *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: 7 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $11IGOTSPADES - All-In(Raise) $46.02 to $46.02Needs to call $35guy has been at the table for about three hands.

#7 cwik

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:43 PM

View PostNo_Neck, on Thursday, May 29th, 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

It is amazing how often you can find people that will call almost every raise from the button, and just pound the crap out of them.Seat 6 - OOODANNYBOY ($52.72 in chips)Seat 4 - IGOTSPADES ($53.52 in chips)OOODANNYBOY - Posts small blind $0.25IGOTSPADES - Posts big blind $0.50*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to OOODANNYBOY [7 :heart: 5 :club: ] OOODANNYBOY - Raises $1.25 to $1.50IGOTSPADES - Calls $1*** FLOP *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $2IGOTSPADES - Calls $2*** TURN *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $4IGOTSPADES - Calls $4*** RIVER *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: 7 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $11IGOTSPADES - All-In(Raise) $46.02 to $46.02Needs to call $35guy has been at the table for about three hands.
kind of a grosser spot then ussual, but I am getting it it much lighter the first few hands of any match. I am pretty sure I am calling here.

#8 Acid_Knight

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 06:22 AM

View Postcwik, on Thursday, May 29th, 2008, 11:43 PM, said:

kind of a grosser spot then ussual, but I am getting it it much lighter the first few hands of any match. I am pretty sure I am calling here.
You can't fold trips HU.This thread will be EZ to offer advice in!

#9 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 06:32 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 10:22 AM, said:

You can't fold trips HU.This thread will be EZ to offer advice in!
Despite the rule that c-r's on the river are almost *never* bluffs and that there isn't a single hand that's doing this for value that we beat?
QUOTE (NoBBiR @ Monday, August 11th, 2008, 7:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If god didn't want that particular law broken, he had no business making those that big.

Climb
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#10 Naismith

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:57 AM

View PostNo_Neck, on Thursday, May 29th, 2008, 10:35 PM, said:

It is amazing how often you can find people that will call almost every raise from the button, and just pound the crap out of them.Seat 6 - OOODANNYBOY ($52.72 in chips)Seat 4 - IGOTSPADES ($53.52 in chips)OOODANNYBOY - Posts small blind $0.25IGOTSPADES - Posts big blind $0.50*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to OOODANNYBOY [7 :heart: 5 :club: ] OOODANNYBOY - Raises $1.25 to $1.50IGOTSPADES - Calls $1*** FLOP *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $2IGOTSPADES - Calls $2*** TURN *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $4IGOTSPADES - Calls $4*** RIVER *** [3 :club: 6 :heart: 7 :spade: 10 :club: 7 :club: ]IGOTSPADES - ChecksOOODANNYBOY - Bets $11IGOTSPADES - All-In(Raise) $46.02 to $46.02Needs to call $35guy has been at the table for about three hands.
God, this is an ugly spot. I kind of agree with Cwik that I'm less likely to give a guy credit early in a session, but I think we're legitimately only beating a slowplayed overpair here or an idiot with AT or something. I don't ever discount the idiot option. I think the right play here is to fold, but in real time, I'd likely give him his one complimentary free buy in.
Peace,
Jay



#11 tskillz187

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 09:28 AM

More info from all HU winners please.
Naismith (2:56:11 PM): fuckerflakeoutonmystakingnowmakingmillions

#12 Sheiky

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:09 PM

How tight do HU pros defend from the BB? I think playing from the BB in HU play is so interesting because there are very profitable players who defend a very very tight range to a button raise, yet there's very profitable players who defend a ton from the BB, most notably i think Antonius, Ivey and LarsLuzak defend a hell of a lot wider than is generaly advised, though granted they are very good post flop players.

#13 Naismith

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:36 PM

View PostSheiky, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 1:09 PM, said:

How tight do HU pros defend from the BB? I think playing from the BB in HU play is so interesting because there are very profitable players who defend a very very tight range to a button raise, yet there's very profitable players who defend a ton from the BB, most notably i think Antonius, Ivey and LarsLuzak defend a hell of a lot wider than is generaly advised, though granted they are very good post flop players.
I know that some of the better pros cut it off at T9o. I have an extremely tight defending range and usually I'm 3-betting instead of calling. I think this is probably a better question for Acid, Cwik or Jordan, all whom play deeper than me.
Peace,
Jay



#14 cwik

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:44 PM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 7:32 AM, said:

Despite the rule that c-r's on the river are almost *never* bluffs and that there isn't a single hand that's doing this for value that we beat?
Thats where the, never fold a pair the first few hands of a match comes in.

#15 cwik

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 02:17 PM

View PostSheiky, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 2:09 PM, said:

How tight do HU pros defend from the BB? I think playing from the BB in HU play is so interesting because there are very profitable players who defend a very very tight range to a button raise, yet there's very profitable players who defend a ton from the BB, most notably i think Antonius, Ivey and LarsLuzak defend a hell of a lot wider than is generaly advised, though granted they are very good post flop players.
I have been asked these kinda questions before and it is hard to give a diffinitive answer, because it is hard to put a fingure on my accual calling range. Mostly I think it is because it verys so much between opponents. My standard line is 3bet most broadway (AK-JT) and 88+, also I'll mix in some suited connectors, and just random two cards when the timeing feels right. On the other hand, I will often defend small pairs (when 75bb+ deep) cause they really don't play well post flop. I might also defend some suited 1-gappers too, but for the most part I am 3betting or folding. As for Ivey, ect, I want to say it is because he is a world class player, but I am not 100% sure that is it. I have a feeling it has something to do with, preflop decisions do not mean that much in deep stacker poker and two, his opponents are not familiar with the style. The thing that suprises me is the guys he is playing at that level are also top notch players, and he is able to give up position so often in the match. Also, I am really not sure how big of a winner he actually is online.

#16 Sheiky

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 02:43 PM

View Postcwik, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 11:17 PM, said:

I have been asked these kinda questions before and it is hard to give a diffinitive answer, because it is hard to put a fingure on my accual calling range. Mostly I think it is because it verys so much between opponents. My standard line is 3bet most broadway (AK-JT) and 88+, also I'll mix in some suited connectors, and just random two cards when the timeing feels right. On the other hand, I will often defend small pairs (when 75bb+ deep) cause they really don't play well post flop. I might also defend some suited 1-gappers too, but for the most part I am 3betting or folding. As for Ivey, ect, I want to say it is because he is a world class player, but I am not 100% sure that is it. I have a feeling it has something to do with, preflop decisions do not mean that much in deep stacker poker and two, his opponents are not familiar with the style. The thing that suprises me is the guys he is playing at that level are also top notch players, and he is able to give up position so often in the match. Also, I am really not sure how big of a winner he actually is online.
FWIW Ivey is the 4th biggest winner on Full Tilt in the past year and a half, i've seen him defend 72s 100BBs deep before (he's a superuser and the guy had 63s obviously) and in the few times i've watched him play he defends light on a regular basis with 100BB stacks.

#17 cwik

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 05:57 PM

View PostSheiky, on Friday, May 30th, 2008, 3:43 PM, said:

FWIW Ivey is the 4th biggest winner on Full Tilt in the past year and a half, i've seen him defend 72s 100BBs deep before (he's a superuser and the guy had 63s obviously) and in the few times i've watched him play he defends light on a regular basis with 100BB stacks.
I mean your gonna have to talk to Phil Ivey, to figure out why his system works. I am not bashing it at all, simply I really don't know what exactly he runs and what he is doing. It is obviously not standard, but imo there is a not a whole lot of 'standard' play in HU that your gonna find at a 6max or full ring game in general.Again not to take anything away from him, but another reason why Ivey's overall results might be inflated is because some random donk with money is much more likely to take a shot at him then a no name like Urindanger.

#18 Naismith

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:28 AM

We had a discussion about one of Negreanu's hands where he completed Q8 or Q7 out of the SB (6-max or full ring) and some of us argued that it was a leak. The consensus generally was that it would be a losing hand for the average player but that maybe someone as good as Negreanu could make it work because of superior postflop play.I think that's probably the same for some of the best HU players in the world. They're so talented that they can take a style that would be sup-optimal at best for even good players and make it work. It's also likely true that the cards don't matter all that much to a guy like Ivey. If he thinks you're weak, you're getting put all in regardless of how badly his 92o missed the flop.Cwik touched on a point, though, that you can defend with a wider range the deeper you play which I think is a very important concept. Defend with a tighter range playing short and a wider range deep. Of course, it's all about what you're comfortable with OOP.In an unrelated note, yesterday I played a 600BB pot where 6BBs went in preflop and 594BBs went in on the flop and the hands were A-high vs T-high.
Peace,
Jay



#19 ROBBBIGG

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:40 AM

were you playing a legion of shortstacks
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#20 Naismith

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:54 AM

View PostROBBBIGG, on Saturday, May 31st, 2008, 7:40 AM, said:

were you playing a legion of shortstacks
LOL. No, just breaking my own rules as I occasionally do. :club:
Peace,
Jay






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