ak and i want a discussion because this one's good

[wrto4556 0]

Before I post anything else I want to say this: What we should debate first is the turn...then preflop. Cool?UTG+1 is TAG: 20/10/2.5MP2 is a maniac: 90/80/2.5SB and BB are TAG...Leaning a little to the passive side.Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: wrto is CO with K:spade:, A:club:. 1 fold, wrto calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (20 SB) 5:spade:, 7:diamond:, 2:club: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, wrto calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (12.50 BB) 9:spade: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets...

[Vade 0]

He capped with A8o LMAOAnyway, that seems fine to get rid of the field, but of course you know already that if someone else sticks around you're probably in pretty horrible shape.

[econ_tim 0]

OK, for the turn, we need to know what TAG UTG+1 would limp-reraise pre-flop, but then play passively on this flop. Maybe AK or AQ or high pairs. I like the raise on the turn to push him out, especially since if he had big pair he probably would have bet the turn. And of course your AK is favorite against maniac.

[obs 0]

First off, I would have 3-bet PF to isolate. You have great position on the LAG, use it. I can see waiting for the turn to raise as that implies a much stronger hand and would get that TAG with overcards out of the pot. It also forces everone to call 2 big bets cold. However, giving the semi-free card on the flop with tons of opponents is dangerous. The question is whether raising the LAG would push anyone out of a pot that big. Overall, the only thing I have a problem with is not 3 betting PF.

[wrto4556 0]

I wont discuss my thinking preflop, yet. Raising the flop does nothing for my hand. People will be getting better than 12-1 on a call...wtf does that do for AK UI. I wait for the turn to blow the field and try and fold out little pairs to get the maniac heads up.The question is, does it work enough?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.

[wrto4556 0]

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.

I thought about not saying...should I edit for the people who havnt seen it?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.

I thought about not saying...should I edit for the people who havnt seen it?

Yes, thanks. You're right, this is a good one for discussion.I was thinking originally about raising the flop, but after further thought, I can definitely see why you decided to wait for the turn. What do you do if you get 3-bet by MP2 on the turn?

[wrto4556 0]

Call down. The last thing i'm doing in this pot is folding. I don't have to have the best hand very much to make raising correct. The thing that gets to me is the fact that there are 3 people I have to fold out to get MP2 heads up.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I don't have to have the best hand very much to make raising correct. The thing that gets to me is the fact that there are 3 people I have to fold out to get MP2 heads up.

Understood. I don't think I'd have the guts to try and pull this off because the 9 could have easily hit someone for the current top pair and then it just depends on whether or not I think I can get him/her to lay it down for 2 cold.

[wrto4556 0]

They also have odds to call for a flush draw. But i'm risking 2 BB to win a 13BB pot. I only have to have the best hand 1 time out of 6 to make the raise correct...even then, I can fold out better hands.

[KDawgCometh 2]

this looks like a something clarkmeister pulled once

[wrto4556 0]

Same basic concept, completely different case.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

In addition to small PP's, the turn raise could fold hands like A5 and clean up some outs. So I think it makes sense.My thoughts on preflop: I'm guessing you opted to try to keep the blinds in and play your AK as a drawing hand (with the lag available to pump the pot for you) instead of hoping it holds up UI against a tight EP raiser and a maniac who you won't be able to read. (Then you decided to make a play on the turn when the board showed garbage and the field looked weak.)

[Guest]

I like the raise on the turn for the reasons you specified. The question I have is what do you do if one of the blinds hangs around and a non-spade that doesn't improve you hits? I would assume the blind would check again and the maniac would bet. Do you call?What if the river a spade with the same river action? The A of spades?Personally, the only hands I see one of the blinds staying in with is either 66 or 88 or a flush draw. In any of these cases your A high is in trouble, and I'm curious what your take on the river would be.With the size of the pot, I would call as being right as little as 1 time in 15 would be right (there's even a decent argument for raising again to force the blind out when non-spade hits as it's very hard for the blind to call two more with only a medium pocket pair and you it would only have to work about once in 7 or 8 times to be profitable.)Zara

[avsfan 0]

Did you call preflop because you thought it would get more money in the pot preflop? Did you want callers preflop? Did you want reraising preflop? Did you want the maniac or someone else to be taking the lead preflop?

[Absolute 0]

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?

[avsfan 0]

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?

I would in this specific situation..

[Guest]

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?

In a pot this big (17BB when the maniac bets into you on the river) you HAVE to call. That's the whole points, you are more than happy to show down the nut no pair vs. a maniac with the pot this huge. Versus just the maniac you basically call in the dark, you don't care what the river is (though if it pairs you you're going to raise) and want to see a showdown with the maniac as he could literally be betting with 34 (the worst possible hand on the turn).The only way you fold this is if you get action from someone besides the maniac. Even if the maniac 3-bet you on the turn I think you should call him on the river UI as you still have a reasonable enough chance to have the best for it to be profitable.Zara

[amarillotg 0]

great idea in getting heads up with the maniac but we have seen UTG+1 slow play PF.did you have any concerns that he was waiting to do the same on the turn with a big pair? That is a great flop for a big PP and UTG+1 could easily be setting a trap for a CR on the turn for the big bets.Just my .02 cents

[wrto4556 0]

The question I have is what do you do if one of the blinds hangs around and a non-spade that doesn't improve you hits? I would assume the blind would check again and the maniac would bet. Do you call?

The river isn't even that important but yes i'm calling a bet from the maniac. I might even overcall if UTG+1 bets and maniac calls. The pot is large.

What if the river a spade with the same river action? The A of spades?

I'm bet/raising the A against the maniac, calling a 3-bet. If another person stays around and it's checked to me, im bet/calling the A .

Personally, the only hands I see one of the blinds staying in with is either 66 or 88 or a flush draw. In any of these cases your A high is in trouble, and I'm curious what your take on the river would be.

The river isn't really important. Im calling a single bet almost no matter what and checking behind UI the rest of the time. The turn is what's important. This play doesn't even have to be against a maniac. In big pots you should look to protect AK if there is any reason you think it's best...no action preflop, you get a raise from someone that is likely to be on a draw and can check/raise him on the turn to blow out the rest of the field.

With the size of the pot, I would call as being right as little as 1 time in 15 would be right (there's even a decent argument for raising again to force the blind out when  non-spade hits as it's very hard for the blind to call two more with only a medium pocket pair and you it would only have to work about once in 7 or 8 times to be profitable.)Zara

What a thought...nice hand, sir. I'll have to think about this...

[wrto4556 0]

great idea in getting heads up with the maniac but we have seen UTG+1 slow play PF.did you have any concerns that he was waiting to do the same on the turn with a big pair?  That is a great flop for a big PP and UTG+1 could easily be setting a trap for a CR on the turn for the big bets.Just my .02 cents

The guy is smart enough not to slowplay with a maniac in the pot.

[wrto4556 0]

Did you call preflop because you thought it would get more money in the pot preflop?  Did you want callers preflop? Did you want reraising preflop? Did you want the maniac or someone else to be taking the lead preflop?

Preflop was in information call. Im still not sure if it's correct, but UTG+1 limping bothered me. I had been 3-betting the maniac with garbage (i.e. A 8 and 77) so I wanted to see how everyone was going to react. If I call and the SB 3-bets, as he has done before, I get to see if UTG+1 caps. If UTG+1 caps I know he has a big pair. If he just calls, he limped because he had a hand that could call a raise but not raise himself.

[amarillotg 0]

great idea in getting heads up with the maniac but we have seen UTG+1 slow play PF.did you have any concerns that he was waiting to do the same on the turn with a big pair?  That is a great flop for a big PP and UTG+1 could easily be setting a trap for a CR on the turn for the big bets.Just my .02 cents

The guy is smart enough not to slowplay with a maniac in the pot.

i kinda thought that would be one of the reasons he would want to slowplay. he has a maniac thats willing bet with an unimproved garbage hand behind him. he also knows the CR will be there for him on the turn and based on his flop check/call he might end up trapping the blinds and yourself if all your holding is mid pairs or high cards.maybe im not seeing the whole picture though.

[wrto4556 0]

He can get way more by betting. MP2 will raise and we are getting great pot odds so we SHOULD call 2 cold...and then two more when he 3-bets and the maniac caps...see what I mean?