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ak and i want a discussion because this one's good

Started by wrto4556, May 08 2005 09:01 PM

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#1 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:01 PM

Before I post anything else I want to say this: What we should debate first is the turn...then preflop. Cool?UTG+1 is TAG: 20/10/2.5MP2 is a maniac: 90/80/2.5SB and BB are TAG...Leaning a little to the passive side.Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: wrto is CO with K:spade:, A:club:. 1 fold, wrto calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (20 SB) 5:spade:, 7:diamond:, 2:club: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, wrto calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (12.50 BB) 9:spade: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets...
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#2 Vade

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:05 PM

He capped with A8o LMAOAnyway, that seems fine to get rid of the field, but of course you know already that if someone else sticks around you're probably in pretty horrible shape.
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#3 econ_tim

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:09 PM

OK, for the turn, we need to know what TAG UTG+1 would limp-reraise pre-flop, but then play passively on this flop. Maybe AK or AQ or high pairs. I like the raise on the turn to push him out, especially since if he had big pair he probably would have bet the turn. And of course your AK is favorite against maniac.

#4 obs

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:15 PM

First off, I would have 3-bet PF to isolate. You have great position on the LAG, use it. I can see waiting for the turn to raise as that implies a much stronger hand and would get that TAG with overcards out of the pot. It also forces everone to call 2 big bets cold. However, giving the semi-free card on the flop with tons of opponents is dangerous. The question is whether raising the LAG would push anyone out of a pot that big. Overall, the only thing I have a problem with is not 3 betting PF.

#5 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:19 PM

I wont discuss my thinking preflop, yet. Raising the flop does nothing for my hand. People will be getting better than 12-1 on a call...wtf does that do for AK UI. I wait for the turn to blow the field and try and fold out little pairs to get the maniac heads up.The question is, does it work enough?
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#6 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:19 PM

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.

#7 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:22 PM

Swift_Psycho said:

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.
I thought about not saying...should I edit for the people who havnt seen it?
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#8 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:30 PM

wrto4556 said:

Swift_Psycho said:

I really think you shouldn't have told us what MP2 had.
I thought about not saying...should I edit for the people who havnt seen it?
Yes, thanks. You're right, this is a good one for discussion.I was thinking originally about raising the flop, but after further thought, I can definitely see why you decided to wait for the turn. What do you do if you get 3-bet by MP2 on the turn?

#9 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:33 PM

Call down. The last thing i'm doing in this pot is folding. I don't have to have the best hand very much to make raising correct. The thing that gets to me is the fact that there are 3 people I have to fold out to get MP2 heads up.
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#10 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:37 PM

wrto4556 said:

I don't have to have the best hand very much to make raising correct. The thing that gets to me is the fact that there are 3 people I have to fold out to get MP2 heads up.
Understood. I don't think I'd have the guts to try and pull this off because the 9 could have easily hit someone for the current top pair and then it just depends on whether or not I think I can get him/her to lay it down for 2 cold.

#11 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:43 PM

They also have odds to call for a flush draw. But i'm risking 2 BB to win a 13BB pot. I only have to have the best hand 1 time out of 6 to make the raise correct...even then, I can fold out better hands.
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#12 KDawgCometh

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:01 PM

this looks like a something clarkmeister pulled once :D
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#13 wrto4556

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:06 PM

Same basic concept, completely different case.
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#14 MrNiceGuy

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:25 PM

In addition to small PP's, the turn raise could fold hands like A5 and clean up some outs. So I think it makes sense.My thoughts on preflop: I'm guessing you opted to try to keep the blinds in and play your AK as a drawing hand (with the lag available to pump the pot for you) instead of hoping it holds up UI against a tight EP raiser and a maniac who you won't be able to read. (Then you decided to make a play on the turn when the board showed garbage and the field looked weak.)
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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:09 PM

I like the raise on the turn for the reasons you specified. The question I have is what do you do if one of the blinds hangs around and a non-spade that doesn't improve you hits? I would assume the blind would check again and the maniac would bet. Do you call?What if the river a spade with the same river action? The A of spades?Personally, the only hands I see one of the blinds staying in with is either 66 or 88 or a flush draw. In any of these cases your A high is in trouble, and I'm curious what your take on the river would be.With the size of the pot, I would call as being right as little as 1 time in 15 would be right (there's even a decent argument for raising again to force the blind out when non-spade hits as it's very hard for the blind to call two more with only a medium pocket pair and you it would only have to work about once in 7 or 8 times to be profitable.)Zara

#16 avsfan

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:54 PM

Did you call preflop because you thought it would get more money in the pot preflop? Did you want callers preflop? Did you want reraising preflop? Did you want the maniac or someone else to be taking the lead preflop?

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#17 Absolute

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:54 AM

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?
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#18 avsfan

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:15 AM

Absolute said:

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?
I would in this specific situation..

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 05:32 AM

Absolute said:

Oh I really like this move.The board is perfect for this. You are more than likely going to isolate here and get heads up with A-high.Now, if everyone but MP2 folds and he leads the river (which doesnt help you), do you call?
In a pot this big (17BB when the maniac bets into you on the river) you HAVE to call. That's the whole points, you are more than happy to show down the nut no pair vs. a maniac with the pot this huge. Versus just the maniac you basically call in the dark, you don't care what the river is (though if it pairs you you're going to raise) and want to see a showdown with the maniac as he could literally be betting with 34 (the worst possible hand on the turn).The only way you fold this is if you get action from someone besides the maniac. Even if the maniac 3-bet you on the turn I think you should call him on the river UI as you still have a reasonable enough chance to have the best for it to be profitable.Zara

#20 amarillotg

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 06:14 AM

great idea in getting heads up with the maniac but we have seen UTG+1 slow play PF.did you have any concerns that he was waiting to do the same on the turn with a big pair? That is a great flop for a big PP and UTG+1 could easily be setting a trap for a CR on the turn for the big bets.Just my .02 cents
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