88 Tough Decision

[cardcore 0]

I misplayed this on both streets, I think, and put myself in a tough spot. Does this turn bet absolutely stink of AT-AK? I called the flop to see if he would fire again on the turn, which I planned to fold, but then when he shoved I thought about it longer and got lost. Who folds, who calls? Do you raise the flop or do you raise pre? Advice please!Full Tilt Poker Game #6532171443: $55 + $5 Sit & Go (Turbo) (49654903), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:45:10 ET - 2008/05/23Seat 1: EveBlues (1,780)Seat 2: sprnklr boy (1,350)Seat 3: hi3pnotic (1,410)Seat 4: payuchast (2,565)Seat 5: blumentopf7 (1,380)Seat 6: EnergyBurst (1,435)Seat 7: KillPokerTime (900)Seat 8: yub yub (1,630)Seat 9: COFFEEViP (1,050)KillPokerTime posts the small blind of 25yub yub posts the big blind of 50The button is in seat #6*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to EnergyBurst [8c 8s]COFFEEViP foldsEveBlues foldssprnklr boy has 15 seconds left to actsprnklr boy raises to 100hi3pnotic foldspayuchast foldsblumentopf7 foldsEnergyBurst calls 100KillPokerTime foldsyub yub calls 50*** FLOP *** [2s 4c 6c]yub yub checkssprnklr boy bets 325EnergyBurst calls 325yub yub folds*** TURN *** [2s 4c 6c] [5h]sprnklr boy bets 925, and is all in

[LJB723 0]

Re-raise pre? Folding to further action? As played raise flop again, folding to a shove?Fold turn. You have to, you have done nothing to define your hand. He could well put you on clubs after the flop and have AX but you obviously can't tell.

[simo_8ball 1]

I shove the flop, and as played I snapcall the turn. Folding an overpair here is very weak.I think you are ahead of his range on the flop, and on the turn he can still show up with any number of weird hands. Especially with a turned gutshot as well, I think it is a very quick call. He can have any number of draws on this board, and he could just be firing a second barrel with air.

[copernicus 0]

Push preflop. A pot size raise is 25% of your stack and folding after that raise would be awful. When you just flat pre you also have no clue whats going on with any flop, so youre investing more a lot of the time. Position helps but not much. Also with the blinds behind you, you are begging for them to tag along and 88 is devalued terribly against multiple villains. push>>set mining>>folding

[gobears 0]

I don't mind the call on the flop as you still have one other player to act behind you. I call the shove on the turn - he could have an overpair as well as just overcards but another low card fell, so if we're behind, the 3 gives us a chop and we pick up the gutter for four more outs.

[Sheiky 0]

Push preflop. A pot size raise is 25% of your stack and folding after that raise would be awful. When you just flat pre you also have no clue whats going on with any flop, so youre investing more a lot of the time. Position helps but not much. Also with the blinds behind you, you are begging for them to tag along and 88 is devalued terribly against multiple villains. push>>set mining>>folding

Shoving is horrible, MP raises to 100 and we're shoving for 1300 more? I fail to see how that is in anyway a good play

[copernicus 0]

Shoving is horrible, MP raises to 100 and we're shoving for 1300 more? I fail to see how that is in anyway a good play

Theres nothing ideal here, but shoving with middle pair is the least of the evils.PS. Your attitude sucks lately. Lighten up.

[Sheiky 0]

Yeh i know, i'm getting slowly corrupted by the internet.

[simo_8ball 1]

I don't hate shoving preflop, but I think calling is a little better. I think there's room to play a little postflop, and that shoving 1435 to win 175 is a little much. Bump the pot to 275 and I'm with you on it though.I would generally fold 22-55 here, flat call 66-88, and probably reraise/shove 99+. It would depend on various factors though - I might flat call AA here, I might shove 44.

[Berwatchey 0]

i dont agree with shoving pre flop or after the flop.sprnklr min raised in early position....if he was a total donk i'd say that meant nothing but it smells like a pair to me. why would he be pot building with the low blinds with trash in his hand?and if he does have big overs(lets say A J+) why such a small raise inviting people in the pot to out draw you.assuming villian is not a complete nimrod i can't see him doing this with any less than queens or a flopped set that hated the drawy board..... although maby pocket 3's.my official guess is villian had kings.or hes a retard and has Ace 6

[copernicus 0]

i dont agree with shoving pre flop or after the flop.sprnklr min raised in early position....if he was a total donk i'd say that meant nothing but it smells like a pair to me. why would he be pot building with the low blinds with trash in his hand?and if he does have big overs(lets say A J+) why such a small raise inviting people in the pot to out draw you.assuming villian is not a complete nimrod i can't see him doing this with any less than queens or a flopped set that hated the drawy board..... although maby pocket 3's.my official guess is villian had kings.or hes a retard and has Ace 6

I vote for Ax. Stacks are short enough that a pair really needs to extract value pre-flop, and he certainly doesnt want to min-raise mid-pairs. Its a tough hand though, as the title said.

[WhatArunAA 0]

Fold pre.

[TravisG 0]

Hm yeah i fold that PRE too. 88 is a weird hand and the stacks are also weird for this level. Shoving is pretty bad imo, and i can't see it being +ev. Just for the fold equity, you have to get him to fold around 13 times to make it +EV and i'm sure he snaps you at least half the time with an overpair here. the rest you're flipping. if you want to play the hand, calling and playing safe is the only option imo, but i fold the turn as played. maybe a little timing tell would've helped, from looking at the hh i think he hated that turn card and shoved his overs. i can't see villain doing this with anything other than overcards and maybe AcKc or AcQc or somethig like that, but thats a too small part of his range to make it a +EV call imo. villain also bets pot on the flop, which is usually a sign of a retarded wussy wanting to make his aces/kings look like he's bluffing. i don't think you win 1 out of 3 times here.

[simo_8ball 1]

villain also OVERBETS the flop

No he doesn't.

[TravisG 0]

No he doesn't.

Oh, sorry, missed that 50 chips by the bb caller. the pot sized bet doesnt change that much tho. the bet kinda served villains purpose if he had an overpair like QQ. he's afraid of Ax hands sucking out and he wants a call from a lower pp, which he got.