Jump to content


Can I Fold Kk Here?


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#81 copernicus

copernicus

    Poker Forum God

  • Members
  • 10,676 posts
  • Interests:Hockey; poker...duh

Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:05 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Thursday, May 22nd, 2008, 2:34 PM, said:

Two questions:1) can someone put together a legitimate, reasonable hand that takes the villains line in this hand that we end up beating after the check/raise (leaving out the fact that this is a 4.40)?2) EVERYONE is talking pot control lately. PXF and CR videos are full of it. But I have never read or heard a thorough explanation of pot control theory. So I am not the best one to comment on most of the threads above. Does anyone know where I can read or hear a very detailed explanation? A link would be great!!!!!
With pokervt out my guess is you'll be hearing/seeing more of it, too. Pot control is most concisely described as sizing bets so that they are appropriate to the strength of your hand and the depth of stacks. Unfortunately being concise doesnt provide much guidance!Professional NLHE talks about pot sizing in terms of the ratio of the effective stack to the starting pot on the flop (Stack to Pot Ratio) and as such is really expressing the limitation on implied/reverse implied odds resulting from different size stacks and pots. When there is a low SPR there is little room for any kind of control, and when you have TP your focus is on how to get all of the money in since any betting will have you pot committed. A pot of as little as 10% of the effective stacks is a warning that pot commitment is likely, so you better love your hand. Conversely when you are deep stacked compared to the pot the potential for large swings in implied odds/reverse implied odds is much greater, but you are also much further from being pot committed. Pre-flop bet sizing is geared toward achieving different SPRs..low SPRs when youre strong and have a lot of reverse implied odds, high SPRs when your hand is more speculative but has big score potential.Specifically in the tournament context pot control also refers to chipping up slowly, taking a lot of small (relative to your stack) risks, rather than a few big ones. Ive been thinking about that mathematically in terms of the Coefficient of Variation...standard deviation/mean...how much risk are you taking relative to your EV, the lower the better. Looking at a series of hands, if you want to reduce CV you can increase your mean (only get involved with the nuts or near nuts, tough to do with rising blinds and antes) or you can reduce the standard deviation. For n plays the total EV is the sum of the individual EVs (or if they are reasonably close, EV x n), while the standard deviation doesnt increase as quickly, dampened by a factor of SQRT(n). Ie a lot of small risks has lower CV than a few large ones. That in turn of course circles back to the "accumulator" vs "survivor" debate. Accumulators are trying to play more hands, maintaining pot control, and chip up slowly, especially trying to pick up orphan pots carrying very little risk. Survivors play fewer hands, but by necessity have to build pots more quickly to compensate for how often they are sitting out. It also is reflected in the debate over limping/min-raises/standard raises.When DN introduces small ball in PokerVT he talks about how it is rooted in mathematics and logic. My guess is that if he delves deeper into the math, it is going to be some sort of equivalent of CV.
___________


Wave upon wave of Demented Avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.



#82 Poker Addict

Poker Addict

    NOT a VB Joke Account!

  • Members
  • 3,301 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottsdale, AZ
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:22 PM

Okay, I should not read stuff like that at the end of my work day after sitting in front of this monitor for 9 hours. I have a headache now.But what I am grabbing right away is the accumulator vs. survivor players. I am most definitely a survivor and I play this effectively for the most part and I have a higher ITM percentage then a lot of players.The problem is I don't final table enough and I believe that is a big cause of that. I don't pick up enough pots and when the blinds get large this really hurts me. I have been trying to read and learn as much as possible over the last month to find out where to pick more spots to accumulate chips.Alright, that is all I can say on the subject right now because I have a headache.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#83 IBFT

IBFT

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 464 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Poker Game:strip poker amirite

Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:33 PM

So was it the ATdd? Did we ever get an answer amidst the pissing contest? Im dying to know!

#84 Poker Addict

Poker Addict

    NOT a VB Joke Account!

  • Members
  • 3,301 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottsdale, AZ
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:35 PM

View PostIBFT, on Thursday, May 22nd, 2008, 4:33 PM, said:

So was it the ATdd? Did we ever get an answer amidst the pissing contest? Im dying to know!
LMAO... it was listed somewhere among all that. Was a set of three's. Either that or I just made that up somewhere along the line.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#85 Thriceknurd

Thriceknurd

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 396 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal

Posted 22 May 2008 - 04:04 PM

15 pages....

#86 siquinte

siquinte

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 51 posts
  • Location:Chile
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:03 PM

Yup it was 33Well thinking about the hand, i realize that yes folding KK is an option cause there aren't many hands he could be raising me with that i have beat considering the way he played, AT mayybe or JJ but i would expect a reraise preflop.However i'm more inclined to think that betting the way i did was the right play cause of the 4.40/donkey factor and protecting your hand here is more important that pot control which maybe is something a little advanced for me and for the level i'm playing.

#87 copernicus

copernicus

    Poker Forum God

  • Members
  • 10,676 posts
  • Interests:Hockey; poker...duh

Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:11 PM

View Postsiquinte, on Thursday, May 22nd, 2008, 6:03 PM, said:

Yup it was 33Well thinking about the hand, i realize that yes folding KK is an option cause there aren't many hands he could be raising me with that i have beat considering the way he played, AT mayybe or JJ but i would expect a reraise preflop.However i'm more inclined to think that betting the way i did was the right play cause of the 4.40/donkey factor and protecting your hand here is more important that pot control which maybe is something a little advanced for me and for the level i'm playing.
Actually I believe its Harrington on Cash that comments on this exact issue. Pot control vs protecting against a draw, and he comes down firmly on the side of pot control because 1. villain has to actually have a draw and 2. has to hit it for it to cost you anything. Whereas if youre already behind all you are doing is building a pot for villain or your 2-5 outer. I'll try and find it later.
___________


Wave upon wave of Demented Avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.



#88 siquinte

siquinte

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 51 posts
  • Location:Chile
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:23 PM

well i think more in a theory of poker way that if i knew he is in a draw i have to bet enough to make him make a mistake not give him the free card.But you make a valid point, i will think about it. i didn't really consider being behind.

#89 copernicus

copernicus

    Poker Forum God

  • Members
  • 10,676 posts
  • Interests:Hockey; poker...duh

Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:59 PM

View Postsiquinte, on Thursday, May 22nd, 2008, 6:23 PM, said:

well i think more in a theory of poker way that if i knew he is in a draw i have to bet enough to make him make a mistake not give him the free card.But you make a valid point, i will think about it. i didn't really consider being behind.
just to clarify, notwithstaning gobears post, I never thought a draw was in his range.
___________


Wave upon wave of Demented Avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users