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Can I Fold Kk Here?


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#1 siquinte

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 08:23 PM

4.40 180 players down to like 40, doing pretty well like 2k over the average.There's a big fight going on in the chat when villain played A3 suited against some guy's 88 with an 8 on the flop. Villain calls a reraise on the flop with a pair of 3s and catches running clubs for a flush. So villain is pretty loose and quite a calling station judgind from that situation, but after that he has been playing a little more solid, or at least hasn't done anything that stupid. PokerStars Game #17580013388: Tournament #89123073, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em NoLimit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/05/21 - 00:00:43 (ET)Table '89123073 3' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: seventyxXx7 (8549 in chips) Seat 2: sandwdg (12285 in chips) Seat 3: Pk IV-75 (8269 in chips) Seat 4: Gandor_vw (5190 in chips) Seat 5: themd (4528 in chips) Seat 7: KungAvSand (10450 in chips) Seat 8: siquinte (7318 in chips) Seat 9: TRAIKO22 (2413 in chips) TRAIKO22: posts small blind 100seventyxXx7: posts big blind 200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to siquinte [Ks Kd]sandwdg: folds Pk IV-75: folds Gandor_vw: folds themd: folds KungAvSand: folds siquinte: raises 400 to 600TRAIKO22: folds seventyxXx7: calls 400*** FLOP *** [8d 3h Tc]seventyxXx7: checks siquinte: bets 800seventyxXx7: calls 800*** TURN *** [8d 3h Tc] [6d]seventyxXx7: checks siquinte: bets 1500seventyxXx7: raises 2500 to 4000Can i fold here, or just shove the rest?

#2 copernicus

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 09:27 PM

too late to ask, though you are probably beaten. Bet smaller on both streets or check behind on the turn for pot control. As is youre pot committed, hope hes betting a draw, TPTK or JJ,QQ.
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#3 cardcore

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 10:37 PM

it very much looks like you're beat, i don't think he's going nuts here with a single ten

#4 TrueAce13

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:37 AM

Its a 4.40, Hellmuth snapshove
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#5 simo_8ball

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:37 AM

View Postcopernicus, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 6:27 AM, said:

Bet smaller on both streets or check behind on the turn for pot control.
What? Sorry, you're losing me on that one. Checking the turn against his range is pretty horrible, and our bets have only been slightly above half pot, so I don't see why we would bet any smaller.I'd like to hear your rationale for checking.

#6 Swiftfish

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:16 AM

Having not seen him play I'd find it hard to put him on a range of hands here but I suspect he would have re-raised with JJ or QQ from the BB. This is possibly the case with TT or 88 as well. I don't know. I can possibly see him having 33 and just flat calling the flop and then check-raising the turn. Also a chance of 97s I suppose. Like, I say I haven't seen him play so I don't know what range he would defend his blind with. If I was playing that hand I probably would fold although it'd be a hard laydown.My guess would be 97 but what he's actually got is irrelevant. What I can't think of is a hand that he could have that he'd flat call with pre-flop, check-call the flop and check-raise the turn that I can beat and therefore I fold. Unless he really has gone wild with KT or something or bizarrely just called with JJ or QQ, I can't imagine being ahead here.By the way, I don't agree with checking the turn. What would that achieve? Even if he had nothing on the river he'd just bet anyway due to you showing weakness and how the heck are you to know where you are then? Betting the turn was the right play.

#7 jmbreslin

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:27 AM

View Postsimo_8ball, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 5:37 AM, said:

I'd like to hear your rationale for checking.
Way ahead/way behind? On the turn villain isn't likely to call another bet with a weak hand, and betting opens Hero up to the check-raise from a stronger hand.
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#8 outsider13

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:38 AM

I'd like to think that I'd fold this hand, but I'd probably snap shove here. This is a 4.40 and people play TPTK like it's the stone cold nuts. That's not necessarily what I think you'll see here, but I think in most cases you are ahead, especially in a 4.40.

#9 biff_goods

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:07 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 7:27 AM, said:

Way ahead/way behind? On the turn villain isn't likely to call another bet with a weak hand, and betting opens Hero up to the check-raise from a stronger hand.
or a check-raise move which, from the read, this guy is capable of. Either way you allow him to play perfectly against you because it puts you in the exact situation you are in right now.
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#10 Mercury69

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:20 AM

View Postcardcore, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 2:37 AM, said:

it very much looks like you're beat, i don't think he's going nuts here with a single ten
Wanna bet? I'm guessing it's entirely likelyFrankly, I'm concerned about the size of your flop bet, which got flatted. Sure, it's a raggedy flop, but if the villain is as loose as you say, you just don't know what he's holding. I'd bet less (450) as a probe or come out swinging (1100+). In both cases, I'm hoping he folds or re-raises. in either case, I'm going all the way.What hands are beating you? TT, 88, 66 (on the turn), 33, AA and...97.Personally, I think it's a call/shove. If they hit their set, very lucky for them, but I think it's a stone cold bluff.
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#11 simo_8ball

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:39 AM

I don't think you often, if ever, get checkraised by a worse hand here.Villain's most likely hand is a ten. He will call the turn with a ten. He might also call the river with a ten. Checking the turn means we get at most one bet from a worse hand.By checking we make a lot less against a ten and we give him a free shot at anything from 5 to 9 outs which we will almost certainly pay off (because we underrep our hand so much).I cannot see a legitimate reason for checking here.

#12 cdipierr

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 07:47 AM

Honestly, if we were worried he's holding something that has us beat, why didn't we just check behind on the river and be content to pick it up with 1 pair? If you're going to value bet the river against a potential maniac, there's no way to fold here.

#13 Poker Addict

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:17 AM

View Postcdipierr, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 8:47 AM, said:

Honestly, if we were worried he's holding something that has us beat, why didn't we just check behind on the river and be content to pick it up with 1 pair? If you're going to value bet the river against a potential maniac, there's no way to fold here.
This isn't at the river, it's the turn. And I don't just lay this down. A LOT of time you will see plays like this that do not have us beat in a 4.40. The low limit players just can not give anyone credit for having a large pocket pair.We have seen him get lucky with A3. He is capable of holding anything. And totally strikes me as a player who would play AT this way. He thinks it's the nuts.I am insta shoving this - now here's where the problem comes in. Even donkeys can wake up with hands. And he could have a set or two pair already. You win against this player more then 2 times out of 3 which should be plenty to make this a profitable move. If he beats you, I say you got unlucky but that is why you have been practicing good bankroll management and move on to your next 4.40 - it will be starting soon.Not saying I'm right, just how I would play against this donk.
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#14 copernicus

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:23 AM

View Postsimo_8ball, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 2:37 AM, said:

What? Sorry, you're losing me on that one. Checking the turn against his range is pretty horrible, and our bets have only been slightly above half pot, so I don't see why we would bet any smaller.I'd like to hear your rationale for checking.
I already said it...pot control. It is far more important here than pricing out a long shot. With these stacks 1/2 pot bets are too big for a mediocre hand.
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#15 mk

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 09:07 AM

View Postcopernicus, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 12:27 AM, said:

too late to ask, though you are probably beaten. Bet smaller on both streets or check behind on the turn for pot control. As is youre pot committed, hope hes betting a draw, TPTK or JJ,QQ.
???ffs this is a 4.40, do not bet smaller, and do not consider folding at any point, do cartwheels and shove

#16 mk

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 09:08 AM

View Postcopernicus, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

With these stacks 1/2 pot bets are too big for a mediocre hand.
lololol @ an overpair being a 'mediocre' hand in a 4.40, KK is the nuts here

#17 TravisG

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 10:22 AM

seriously. dont evereverevercheck that turn.he will call you down with K8o.this is not a longshot. you get immediate and big results right there. as played, i apply the hellmuthian instashove.villains range is something like ... 9T-AT, some sets and sometimes something totally random.

#18 siquinte

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 10:36 AM

Well, lots of different opinions. I've been running really bad lately but i played a couple of tournaments reaally bad so i wanted to play this one ok.The guy had 33, and my play was insta shove cause i went with the read i had on the guy that he was really stupid, and well 4.40 pretty much everyone is.But when i bet the turn i actually thought of checking to control the pot, but again i went with the read. I think that was the best play, he fires the river i call take the cooler but i'm still in it.

#19 copernicus

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 11:11 AM

View Postmk, on Wednesday, May 21st, 2008, 10:08 AM, said:

lololol @ an overpair being a 'mediocre' hand in a 4.40, KK is the nuts here
guess not!Seriously, I think if 4.40 players want to be able to move up successfully then developing skills like pot control and rational hand reading are essential. Yes, you may give up some EV folding hands like this at the 4.40 level, but it'll save your a$$ at $30+ buyins. If youre content at the 4.40 level and crushing them by adapting to the bad play, have fun.
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#20 simo_8ball

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:42 PM

I thought I'd repost this on 2p2 as a $30mtt thread: http://forumserver.t...d.php?p=4255892I'll happily repost it in HSMTT tomorrow as a $100 MTT to see if opinions change there. I highly doubt they will.I maintain that checking the turn is horrible.




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