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Jj Weird Spot


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#1 cardcore

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 11:27 AM

This happened about 2 hours ago but it's bugging me, I'd like to know how everyone else plays this hand on every street. $55 SNG, all players still in. No reads...I'm in SB with JJ, blinds 30/60, effective stacks 1800.UTG+1 raises to $180, everyone folds to me, I flat, BB folds.Flop is 773 with 2 hearts, I lead out for $290, he raises to $700. Shove or fold?Raise pre? check/call flop? If I check call the flop, what do I do on the turn if it's a non jack?

#2 Sheiky

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 11:39 AM

Don't lead the flop

#3 HighwayStar

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:10 PM

Nasty spot with that stack preflopShoving is too much and any 3 bet leaves you OOP with an awkward pot size and a hand that misses a lot of flops

View PostSheiky, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 8:39 PM, said:

Don't lead the flop
What do you prefer?Check/shove is ok i guessCheck/call is horrible imo.Check/check can lead to a lot of awkward turn cards.I think I lead out here a lot given you flat called preAs played I puke and shove.He's doing this with 88-AA and maybe a few draws?Just about good against that range.
.

#4 Sheiky

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:26 PM

Well, let me re-phrase, don't lead the flop if you don't know what to do if raised, as a general rule of thumb. The problem with lead/folding is that on a flop of 773 you look like you're bluffing a lot and hence are suseptible to get raised by a wide range, a lot of which we beat. For this reason i don't mind bet/3-betting all in i suppose. Bet folding just seems kind of dumb/weak to me though

#5 Poker Addict

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:36 PM

Hate this spot. But I am lead/shoving and hoping he misses his AK flush draw.JJ sucks!!!!!!!!
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#6 cardcore

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:41 PM

What do you do if you 3bet pre? What do you 3bet to, and obviously you fold to a shove, but what if he flats and you take the same flop?

#7 LJB723

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:45 PM

View Postcardcore, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 9:41 PM, said:

What do you do if you 3bet pre? What do you 3bet to, and obviously you fold to a shove, but what if he flats and you take the same flop?
3-bet 400, fold to a shove yes. If he flats and we get the same flop I'm happy to get it all-in.
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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:53 PM

View PostLJB723, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 1:45 PM, said:

3-bet 400, fold to a shove yes. If he flats and we get the same flop I'm happy to get it all-in.
You arent deep enough to do this and he just raised us 410. So you want to do a mini raise here and fold to a shove after putting in that huge portion of your stack? I don't see having any FE in a mini raise here. If you are going to fold to a shove then fold right here to the raise. Which might be the correct play anyway.Okay, as I often do while writing and thinking... He raised from early position, raised your lead out bet, folding is probably your best option. You have enough chips to get a better spot - I am having a hard time to find a hand that you are beating besides a very slightly smaller pp. Check his sharkscope stats.Anyway, lead folding is probably the best line.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#9 gobears

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 01:49 PM

I check/call flop. I normally would like a c/r here if we were deeper but it commits to much of our stack. I don't like the lead because it's normally seen as weak and an aggressive opponent will raise against an unknown.If a non-jack falls, I fold to a second barrel by villain.
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#10 cardcore

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 01:55 PM

View Postgobears, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 1:49 PM, said:

I check/call flop. I normally would like a c/r here if we were deeper but it commits to much of our stack. I don't like the lead because it's normally seen as weak and an aggressive opponent will raise against an unknown.If a non-jack falls, I fold to a second barrel by villain.
why would you call if you think you need to hit a jack though? shouldn't you just fold the flop with this rationale?why check/call? it doesn't tell you anything about where you are in the hand

#11 cardcore

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 01:58 PM

View PostHighwayStar, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

Nasty spot with that stack preflopShoving is too much and any 3 bet leaves you OOP with an awkward pot size and a hand that misses a lot of flopsWhat do you prefer?Check/shove is ok i guessCheck/call is horrible imo.Check/check can lead to a lot of awkward turn cards.I think I lead out here a lot given you flat called preAs played I puke and shove.He's doing this with 88-AA and maybe a few draws?Just about good against that range.
this is exactly 100% what i thought, I puked and shoved the flop over his raise. I figured he raises my lead 100% of the time anyway, I just have to hope he doesn't have KK,QQ,AA. I thought folding was way too weak, but I also hated getting it in. In retrospect, I probably should have folded and waited for a better spot. Anyway, I ran into QQ and spiked a J on the river, so obviously it was a good play.Interesting insight, though. I think maybe I should have 3bet pre and folded to his shove? If he flats it I'm probably going broke on that flop, but I feel much better about it.

#12 copernicus

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:04 PM

min raise to 300 pf. If he pushes back, fold (oops) obv.Theres 660 in the pot, 1500 behind, enough room to play poker.Im not worried about the flush draw after that sequence, just the overs. With that flop put a solid bet out...400 leaves enough for a significant charge to see the river if the turn blanks.
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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:05 PM

View Postcardcore, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 2:58 PM, said:

this is exactly 100% what i thought, I puked and shoved the flop over his raise. I figured he raises my lead 100% of the time anyway, I just have to hope he doesn't have KK,QQ,AA. I thought folding was way too weak, but I also hated getting it in. In retrospect, I probably should have folded and waited for a better spot. Anyway, I ran into QQ and spiked a J on the river, so obviously it was a good play.Interesting insight, though. I think maybe I should have 3bet pre and folded to his shove? If he flats it I'm probably going broke on that flop, but I feel much better about it.
This is why I changed my mind in my second post. I just couldn't think of a hand that he plays this way that we beat. TT, 99, 88 is about it. And I think he is stronger. If he is weaker and has a hand that we actually beat - then he is gonna donk off his chips anyway.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#14 gobears

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:05 PM

View Postcardcore, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 2:55 PM, said:

why would you call if you think you need to hit a jack though? shouldn't you just fold the flop with this rationale?why check/call? it doesn't tell you anything about where you are in the hand
Villain is going to have to commit a bigger portion of his stack on the turn so AK/AQ/smaller PP's that you're ahead of might check behind which would tell you something about his hand. Now if he's the type to two-barrel regardless of what he's got then you have to decide whether or not to play for stacks.Quite a few players will fire one CB and then shut down if their hand missed the flop.
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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:06 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 3:04 PM, said:

min raise to 300 pf. If he pushes back, call obv.Theres 660 in the pot, 1500 behind, enough room to play poker.Im not worried about the flush draw after that sequence, just the overs. With that flop put a solid bet out...400 leaves enough for a significant charge to see the river if the turn blanks.
What range are you putting the villain on?
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:10 PM

View Postgobears, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 3:05 PM, said:

Villain is going to have to commit a bigger portion of his stack on the turn so AK/AQ/smaller PP's that you're ahead of might check behind which would tell you something about his hand. Now if he's the type to two-barrel regardless of what he's got then you have to decide whether or not to play for stacks.Quite a few players will fire one CB and then shut down if their hand missed the flop.
That makes some sense to me.But you are check/calling, check/folding unless you hit. If you play that passive, are you concerned about another barrel on the river or do you think he checks down weaker hands no matter what?
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#17 cardcore

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:13 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 2:10 PM, said:

That makes some sense to me.But you are check/calling, check/folding unless you hit. If you play that passive, are you concerned about another barrel on the river or do you think he checks down weaker hands no matter what?
there's no way i'd ever take this line, ever. you lose way more than you win taking this line

#18 copernicus

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:14 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 3:06 PM, said:

What range are you putting the villain on?
At what point in the hand? (you missed my edit).After his initial raise? 66+, AJo+, A9s+, suited connnectors down to JT, KQ, KJ, KJs...overall a slight equity edge. As soon as he calls or raises youre way behind tho.
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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:22 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 3:14 PM, said:

At what point in the hand? (you missed my edit).After his initial raise? 66+, AJo+, A9s+, suited connnectors down to JT, KQ, KJ, KJs...overall a slight equity edge. As soon as he calls or raises youre way behind tho.
I knew you would come around to my bet/fold philosophy. I don't this is ultra weak at all.EDIT: Oh, your mini raise pre flop... IDK if I take that line. But I see why someone would.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#20 gobears

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 03:11 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Monday, May 19th, 2008, 3:10 PM, said:

That makes some sense to me.But you are check/calling, check/folding unless you hit. If you play that passive, are you concerned about another barrel on the river or do you think he checks down weaker hands no matter what?
Or you can check/call down if you feel that villain will fire on all streets with a worse hand. With that flop, it's WA/WB. You're never getting AA-QQ to fold but you can get hands like 88-1010 or big aces to fold if you fire. However, if you check/call, you can entice a bluff from an aggro.
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