11 replies to this topic

[Jubba]

Ok, now I'm probably going to get berated for my play here, but I want to know what you guys think of my thought process. I'm playing a home game with the regular guys. We play every week and most are about the same skill level. Some are botards, but a little over half are competent. The money usually cycles between the competent players. Contrary to what you will think after reading my post, I am one of the better of the competent with only two others being my equals.Because we all play together I know their tendencies and tells and everything so reads are taken into account. Following hand comes up.UTG is a super-rock. We call him the 'Black hole' because once he wins a pot, the money doesn't leave his stack. We're playing a $20 buy-in w/ .25/.50 blinds. He raises UTG to $3. I'm in the bb and it gets folded around to me. Before I even look at my cards, I decide that he has KK or QQ and that if I have any kind of suited connecter or even connecter I am probably going to at least see the flop. I knew he didn't have Aces because he has never raised that much with Aces before, ever. Ever. Thats why its Ks or Qs. Not that it really matters because they all have me smoked at this poing I'm sure...I know the odds aren't there (at all) but here is my reasoning. He really just wanted to pick up the blinds, so he's betting $3 to win $.75. Not really a good strategy, but I understand his logic. Now my thinking is he's betting $3 to win $.75, but if I get a great flop for my hand, I know hes going to be married to that pair and I'll get his whole stack. So I'm calling $2.50 to win his entire $20 stack. I decide before looking at my cards that I'm 85% sure I'm going to call. I look down and seePreflop: Jubba is delt 8:heart: 4 in the BBEveryone else called me a maniac afterwards too, but the flop cameFlop: 5 6 3 and now I push all-in. I know that I'm a 56% favorite to win this pot and in a cash game I'll take that chance. I have an inside straight draw, and the flush draw, plus the off chance of running two-pair or trips.He calls w/ 2 black Kings and the A on the turn gives me the hand.In NL cash games I open up and will play pretty much any two cards if I think i can take the pot from someone, or have a good shot to draw out and take their stack. Sometimes I like to play the hands blind without my friends knowing. And Super-rock knows that i play a wiiiiide range of hands so there are a bunch of hands that I could have him drawing slim to after that flop. I really think that he made the mistake post-flop in not taking that into consideration.Ok, so thats my hand and I just wanted anyone else's opinion.and don't say fold 8-4s pre-flop :-)

[Vade]

Actually I'm not going to berate you simply because you clearly know this player very well. If you are that confident in your read, and you weren't going to miss the three dollars if the flop came with all black cards...meh...Home games are the perfect time for plays like this.I actually don't entirely hate it.

[allinbluff35]

Ok, so thats my hand and I just wanted anyone else's opinion. why? you put your money in with the favorite and won, that's nice have a great day

[MrNiceGuy]

Congrats on taking it down.But I think you need deeper stacks for better implied odds to justify calling this preflop. I don't think the odds of you catching a flop that makes you the favorite are worth the $2.50 investment when you're dominated when you only stand to win up to $20. (Unless you think you could've bluffed him off his hand with a lot of flops.)

[akishore]

i play like this often if the game is weak, as you describe yours to be.that said, i would like it a lot more if the buy-in was $50, or if the blinds were 10c/20c.as a previous poster said, you need deep stacks to play loose.you're calling $2.50 to win $20, and i don't think you'll get a strong ENOUGH flop 1/8 of the time to justify calling this with the implied odds of earning his stack.you'll often get a flop like Q 9 2 , and then what do you do? you can try a semi-bluff, but you know he won't lay down his kings to you. you can check, but you'll probably get a pot-bet or a 2/3-pot bet in your face, and now not only are your pot odds terrible to chase, but your implied odds are drastically lower since he just put in 1/4 of his stack into the bet.see what i mean?if the buy-in is 50 big blinds, you can loosen up a little, but you really need 100 big blinds or more to play as loose as you want to.summary: i don't like your play given the shallow stacks. if the stacks were deep, you play like me sometimes.aseem

[Jubba]

allinbluff35 said:

why? you put your money in with the favorite and won, that's nice have a great day

I wasn't talking about after the flop. After the flop there is no question about. I was wondering if anyone else considers playing cards like that for the reason I stated.

[Jubba]

ideally we would be playing a $50 or $100 but some of the guys we play with don't have jobs (still live w/ their parents) and can't afford a higher buy-in. Days that they don't come we have bigger games.

[Swift_Psycho]

Jubba said:

I have an inside straight draw, and the flush draw, plus the off chance of running two-pair or trips.

Actually, it's a two-way straight draw.

[Petoria]

If he knows that the rock has KK or QQ, an argument can be made that if an A hits and you push all-in, you will take it down. Not having an A in your hand might give you an extra out. You have to know that the rock will fold KK if the A hits though to count it.

[DCWildcat]

While I really like your logic, I agree with others in that you need a bigger stack to make the play. $3 is just too much in a $20 buyin. If it was $40, I'd love it.

[UnionGuy]

these types of low-skill NL games are basiclly what I play. Both online and in person.I like every part of the hand and how you played it. Of course, it's gutsy with just $20 in front of you, but I think it was soild play overall.

[Wily]

This is pretty much the de facto play in my home NL games,with the same blinds except the stacks are lot deeper ($40 buyin, playable stacks are $80-150). A lot of hands are tight, rockish players opening up a large raise with a premium hands, and several jackals run to call with any two trying to snag a flop and bust him. Several problems with this approach1) You have to be able to make a good laydown post flop if the odds aren't right, or if you dont hit a flop perfectly. A good number of the jackals in my game will call expensive bets to the turn/river chasing with a lower pair trying to catch a 5-outter, or with a gutshot straight draw, etc. Of course, this is mitigated if the tight raiser is also weak post-flop by not betting enough on every street to price out most draws. I'm usually that tight preflop raiser in my games, and I love to push a raiser all in when I hit a strong hand on the flop if he raises my bet/bets before me. Of course, you'd have to have strong reads on your opponent, and usually a stronger hand than just TPTK for this to profit. If the tight player is also aggressive, and will not allow raises for free cards or does stop and gos at times, your plan of drawing with crap cards is going to be really expensive and high variance.2) Even if you snag a good two low pair, which is fairly good with these rag hands you play to a raise, you can end up in a lot of trouble against a tight player with a lot of flush/straight outs and overcards/overpairs. See my post on "NL Home Game Tough Spots: Rag two pair" for more about it ...Alot of times you will be forced into raising them all in on the flop/getting pushed all in, and while you might not mind being a slight favorite to an overpair with a flush draw or something like that, you still should play for better than just coin flips ina lot of these situations.3) You have to be able to not bluff excessively after the flop. Many of the rock players will depend on their big hands to scoop big pots, and you find it hard/almost impossible to get folds from them.