Trying To Do Too Much?

[Gargoyle97 0]

I am trying to play more hands in position.Thoughts on the flop raise?I couldn't find the fold button on the turn when the K hit, should be looking for it?Fold the river unimproved? I don't think the third spade made anyone's hand here.PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, T. 3 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.Flop: (12.50 SB) T, 2, 2(4 players)BB bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.Turn: (12.25 BB) K(4 players)BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.River: (16.25 BB) 4(4 players)BB bets, Hero ?

[Zach6668 513]

The turn is the most interesting street, imo.

[bobbywithani 0]

The turn is the most interesting street, imo.

Yeah, but I believe we have to raise.

[Gargoyle97 0]

This was my first orbit and I didn't have any info to help with ranges. What BB hands call two cold preflop and like this flop?I figure spades, middle pairs, monsters, suited A2, connectors with including T or crazy blind defenders. The flop 3-bet felt like a set.So with the K on the turn I it looks like four outs to the best hand. Except MP2 is still in the hand with likely AK+ (should he have folded AK--barring AKspades--facing two on the flop). I guess am thinking my K outs are either dirty (only good for split pot) or some are in his hand.Does the turn K make the remaining twos hidden outs?

[Zach6668 513]

Why would you be splitting when you hit a K?

[Frez 0]

The turn is the most interesting street, imo.

Well, I can't see the suits again, but are you saying that it's interesting Hero did not raise?I wonder what we can put the button on? We're counterfeited against AA. In great shape against AK, QQ, JJ, and smaller pairs. A 2 can't be likely. TT or KK are bad, but unlikely. MP2 and BB are even harder to read, I think TT in the range for calling 2 more in the BB. ATs is possible. Maaaaaaaybe A2s, but he'd have to be fairly loose to do that. Either one could have a JTs type of hand. I've seen lots of people go nuts with just top pair like that.I won't say we need to raise the turn for info because that will set Zach off - but a raise here is 60% value, 20% thin field, 20% info. If someone (BB) reraises then bets any non-Ace river, I just call. Heck, I probably call an Ace river for the size of the pot unless it makes a flush (I can't see) or something.If I raise the turn and its just called behind me, then checked to me on the river, I bet of course.Things are a little simpler if we're in a better position. If you're looking to play a few more hands I think this is one that could wait until a little later.

[Zach6668 513]

sigh, you still don't get it? lolThe turn raise has nothing to do with info. It's a value raise, if we believe we're ahead of his range. Info is a byproduct of the value raise. Period.

[Gargoyle97 0]

Why would you be splitting when you hit a K?

because I forgot to table my T -- too much typing not enough thinking

[bobbywithani 0]

This was my first orbit and I didn't have any info to help with ranges. What BB hands call two cold preflop and like this flop?I figure spades, middle pairs, monsters, suited A2, connectors with including T or crazy blind defenders. The flop 3-bet felt like a set.So with the K on the turn I it looks like four outs to the best hand. Except MP2 is still in the hand with likely AK+ (should he have folded AK--barring AKspades--facing two on the flop). I guess am thinking my K outs are either dirty (only good for split pot) or some are in his hand.Does the turn K make the remaining twos hidden outs?

Flop three-bet couldn't really be a set, he would already have a full house, I don't think anyone would play 1010 like that. A2 is definetly a possiblity. Your K outs are almost never dirty you dominate AKo and are in great shape against AKspades. I still think turn is a raise, but I'll leave someone with better hand range calculations to give you a better equity calculations.

[Gargoyle97 0]

Sigh, i meant trips

[bobbywithani 0]

Sigh, i meant trips

Oh. I actually wasn't trying to be one of those anal guys who makes a big deal about the difference between sets and trips, it's just that if this board had been say 10 7 2 with two of a suit his line would be screaming set based on his cold call and sudden aggro.

[Zach6668 513]

Flop three-bet couldn't really be a set, he would already have a full house, I don't think anyone would play 1010 like that. A2 is definetly a possiblity. Your K outs are almost never dirty you dominate AKo and are in great shape against AKspades. I still think turn is a raise, but I'll leave someone with better hand range calculations to give you a better equity calculations.

K outs are only dirty against AA and KK.I doubt there's a 2 out here, although it's interesting to note that the guy raising the flop is not the same guy who 3-bet preflop, thus increasing the likelihood that he has a 2, whereas the pf 3-bettor would never have one.

[bobbywithani 0]

K outs are only dirty against AA and KK.

And K10 you dolt. I'm far too bored today.

[Zach6668 513]

We don't have any outs if he has KT, silly, but you probably meant TT?

[Gargoyle97 0]

K outs are only dirty against AA and KK.

I'm getting leveled here, right?

[bobbywithani 0]

We don't have any outs if he has KT, silly, but you probably meant TT?

It's too hot today.

[Frez 0]

sigh, you still don't get it? lolThe turn raise has nothing to do with info. It's a value raise, if we believe we're ahead of his range. Info is a byproduct of the value raise. Period.

Wow, the replies are coming faster than I can post, or edit when I rethink a little.Anyways, I'm teasing! Of course it's a value raise, but regardless we will always use the info we gain from our opponent's reactions. So that info itself has some value.So share your wisdom, imagine you raised the turn, and tell us how you react when someone behind you 3-bets?

[Gargoyle97 0]

I'm actually feeling better.A K is good vs. AA (Kings full of Tens vs. Aces Up)A K is good vs. TT (Kings full of Tens vs. Tens full of Kings)There are no more K vs. KKEdit: Aww crap! I got re-leveled

[Zach6668 513]

I'm getting leveled here, right?

Sorry, I meant after the flop. I see you mean after the turn.I think the better idea for the turn is not to think about only the hands we're behind, but to think about what our equity would be against his overall range.I can't even begin to think what his range from the BB could be here coldcalling like he has been. I feel like 2x is a big part, unfortunately.

[Gargoyle97 0]

I can't even begin to think what his range from the BB could be here coldcalling like he has been. I feel like 2x is a big part, unfortunately.

His range is my problem in his hand. I can't rule out a 2, especially when he 3-bets the flop.The preflop 3-bettor with position goes quiet, but didn't fold to my flop raise.I suppose the third player in the hand is more reason to raise the turn, even though I think BB is waking up with a 2.At the time I thought the third player was giving me odds to draw.

[pokerkid 0]

Is anyone recommending a raise on the turn here?Button's play screams of an overpair. Maybe it's overs with the spade draw.Anybody think we can fold the river here with the strong possibility of it getting raised behind us?