67 replies to this topic

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

this should be good! GOGOGO

[mr_druid]

?

[PMJackson21]

this should be good! GOGOGO

Koufax - 314 games started, 165-87 (.655 winning percentage, highest in NL since 1913 amongst pitchers with at least 2000 ips), career era of 2.76, 2396 Ks, 2324 IPs, 137 complete games, 40 shut outs, and 4 no hitters including a perfect game. He won 3 Cy Young awards, all 3 by unanimous vote, and all 3 occuring before they gave the award to pitchers in both leagues. In these seasons he had the pitcher's triple crown, leading the league in wins, Ks, and era. He retired at the age of 30, in his final season going 27-9 with an era of 1.73. In the post season, he was 4-3 with a 0.95 era.

Gibson - 482 games started, 251-174 (.591 winning percentage), career era of 2.91, 3117 Ks, 3884 IPs, 255 complete games, 56 shut outs, and one no hitter. He won 2 Cy Youngs awards, 9 Gold Gloves, and had a career batting avg of .303. His 1968 season of 22-9/1.12/13 shut outs was incredible, and led to the league lowering the mound. In the post season, he was 7-2 with a 1.89 era.

If you are going by longevity, overall career stats, etc, then sure, the argument can be made. Sandy's overall numbers are hurt by retiring at such a young age (as well as being a bonus baby and starting his career slowly after being forced onto the roster), and some of Bob's numbers are hurt by playing for 17 years. If you look at the underlying numbers (whip, k/9 ip, era+), I think the case for Koufax is better however.

I'm not even close to being old enough to have watched either pitch (other then footage obv), but I am almost certain that old time baseball fans would remember Koufax as the more dominant as well. He was a pretty important character in not only baseball history, but pop culture history. If you ever get the chance, there is a very good SI article written not too long after his retirement that does an excellent job of portraying his significance to the country at the time.

My fav Koufax career stat: He was twice as likely to throw a cg shut out (40), then hit a batter (18).

[PMJackson21]

On the surface (in other words without looking really in depth at the comparative stats), Koufax is to Gibson as Barry Sanders is to Emmit Smith...

IMO of course.

[timwakefield]

I take Koufax over Gibson for a career, but Gibson's 1.12 ERA season was retarded. I read some really ridiculous stats from that season, I'll try to find them.


Pedro > Koufax btw, but we've had that discussion about 6 times already I think.

[timwakefield]

My fav Koufax career stat: He was twice as likely to throw a cg shut out (40), then hit a batter (18).

That is unreal.

[PMJackson21]

I take Koufax over Gibson for a career, but Gibson's 1.12 ERA season was retarded. I read some really ridiculous stats from that season, I'll try to find them.

If I had to guess, the stat (or one of them) had to do with his losses? IIRC, his 9 losses were bretty brutal in regards to run support.

Pedro > Koufax btw, but we've had that discussion about 6 times already I think.

Delino Deshields FTW.

[timwakefield]

If I had to guess, the stat (or one of them) had to do with his losses? IIRC, his 9 losses were bretty brutal in regards to run support.

I remember where I read it now - in Roger Angell's book Game Time. He's a fantastic baseball writer btw, I highly recommend anything by him. Anyways I think it was more to do with just how few runs he gave up over one stretch, and some like superhuman stretches of perfect pitching. I'll try to find something on the ol' internet about it.

[PMJackson21]

I remember where I read it now - in Roger Angell's book. He's a fantastic baseball writer btw, I highly recommend anything by him. Anyways I think it was more to do with just how few runs he gave up over one stretch, and some like superhuman stretches of perfect pitching. I'll try to find something on the ol' internet if I can.

That was also the year Don Drysdale broke the consecutive scoreless innings streak; not a bad year for dominant pitching. Drysdale and Gibson were two of the meanest SOBs ever to pitch as well; I still love how Drysdale would hit the batter any time he was asked to walk him, because it would save 3 pitches. LOL, I wonder how well that attitude would go over in today's baseball world.

[JoeyJoJo]

My fav Koufax career stat: He was twice as likely to throw a cg shut out (40), then hit a batter (18).

I guess that makes him the anti-Gibson.

Dig into the box against Gibson, and he'd stuff a fastball in your ear. Sometimes he'd knock a hitter down for apparently no reason. Then a minute later, teammates would remember. Oh yeah, that guy hit a homer off Gibson a month ago.

"He fell off the mound going toward first base, so people thought they could bunt against him. But when you'd try to sacrifice, when you thought he couldn't get back, he'd regroup and make a double play. Plus if you tried to bunt, he might throw one under your chin the next time."




Here's some fun stats about his 1.12 year.

[timwakefield]

This is totally unrelated but seems like as good a place as any: I just came across the really famous and amazing story by John Updike about Ted Williams last game. Y'all should check it out if you've never read it.


Hub fans bid kid adieu

Understand that we were a crowd of rational people. We knew that a home run cannot be produced at will; the right pitch must be perfectly met and luck must ride with the ball. Three innings before, we had seen a brave effort fail. The air was soggy; the season was exhausted. Nevertheless, there will always lurk, around a corner in a pocket of our knowledge of the odds, an indefensible hope, and this was one of the times, which you now and then find in sports, when a density of expectation hangs in the air and plucks an event out of the future.

Here's some fun stats about his 1.12 year.

Precondition Failed
The precondition on the request for the URL /archives/2005/06/gibson_was_grea_1.php evaluated to false.

[PMJackson21]

I guess that makes him the anti-Gibson.

Dig into the box against Gibson, and he'd stuff a fastball in your ear. Sometimes he'd knock a hitter down for apparently no reason. Then a minute later, teammates would remember. Oh yeah, that guy hit a homer off Gibson a month ago.

"He fell off the mound going toward first base, so people thought they could bunt against him. But when you'd try to sacrifice, when you thought he couldn't get back, he'd regroup and make a double play. Plus if you tried to bunt, he might throw one under your chin the next time."


Here's some fun stats about his 1.12 year.

Yup pretty much....although Gibson had pretty good control and only hit 102 (in comparison, Drysdale = 154). Dusty Baker on what Hank Aaron told him re: Gibson:

"'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson, he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, 'Damn, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."

Also, Gibson in describing his pitches: "Two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve changeup, knockdown, brushback and hit batsman."

In regards to Koufax, although he didn't hit people often, I still remember a story Drysdale told in his book about an incident. I found a recount of it (better then my version I had typed out, I had Brock getting an infield single and the bench player being Junior Gilliam, but I read that book millions of brain cells ago):

We think of Sandy Koufax, he of the hissing fastball and a curve that changed directions abruptly. He also would throw at a hitter, such as the day Lou Brock of the Cardinals walked, stole second and third. and scored on a flyball.

Watching Brock do it, Koufax's teammate and fellow pitcher Don Drysdale said to infielder Jim Lefebre, "Frenchy, I feel sorry for that man."

"Who?" Lefebre said.

"Brock. Sandy doesn't appreciate that sort of thing. Sandy gets mad enough when you beat him with base hits. But when you score runs without hits, look out."

Next time up, Brock went down, hit in the back by a fastball.

"You could hear the thud all over the stadium," Drysdale said. "Brock trotted toward first base. not rubbing. pretending he wasn't hurt But he never made it. Brock just collapsed, and they had to carry him off on a stretcher."

[JoeyJoJo]

Precondition Failed

Gibson Was Great in '68
By Bill Deane

Bob Gibson was a very good pitcher for several years through the 1967 season, and a very good pitcher for several more years starting in 1969. But in 1968, particularly during a two-month stretch in mid-season, Gibson was arguably the greatest pitcher of all time.

His period of dominance actually began after he suffered a broken leg on July 15, 1967. Returning to action on September 7, Gibson went 3-1 with a 0.96 ERA the rest of the regular season, then led the Cardinals to the world championship with a 3-0, 1.00 World Series performance. Picking up right where he left off, Gibby was 4-0, 1.64 in spring training of the next year.

Then followed his epic 1968 season: a 1.12 ERA, the lowest ever for anyone pitching as many as 300 innings. In fact, he flirted with a sub-one ERA, entering August with a 0.96 mark, and still standing at 0.99 after Labor Day.

One of the reasons Gibson's season doesn't receive the recognition it deserves is his relatively modest 22-9 won-lost record. How does someone lose nine games with a 1.12 ERA? It was mostly a case of poor offensive and defensive support:

April 20: 5-1 vs. Chicago (CG, 3 ER). Hall of Famer Fergie Jenkins three-hit the Cardinals, not allowing a run until two were out in the ninth inning.

May 12: 3-2 vs. Houston (8 IP, 2 ER).

May 17: 1-0 vs. Philadelphia (CG, 1 ER). The game's only run scored with two out in the tenth inning.

May 22: 2-0 vs. Los Angeles (8 IP, 1 H, 1 ER). Hall of Famer Don Drysdale pitched his third of a record six straight shutouts.

May 28: 3-1 vs. San Francisco (CG, 3 ER).

August 24: 6-4 vs. Pittsburgh (CG, 3 ER). Unearned runs ended his 15-game winning streak.

September 6: 3-2 vs. San Francisco (8 IP, 2 ER).

September 17: 1-0 vs. San Francisco (CG, 1 ER). Ron Hunt hit one of his two homers of the year, and Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry no-hit the Cards.

September 22: 3-2 vs. Los Angeles (CG, 2 ER).

In those games, Gibson went 0-9 despite a 2.14 ERA. Had the Cardinals scored but four runs in each of Gibson's 34 starts, he would have gone 30-2. Yes, 1968 was a historically low-scoring season, with only 3.43 runs per team per game in the NL. OK, if the Cards had scored 3.43 runs in each game Gibson pitched, he STILL would have gone 30-4. If they had scored merely three runs in each game, Gibby would have been 24-4. Even if St. Louis had scored only two runs in each game, he would have gone 23-10. And -- ready for this? -- if they had scored just ONE RUN in each game he pitched, Gibson would still have had a winning record, at 13-10.

There is also the perception that EVERY hurler dominated in The Year of the Pitcher. But Gibson's ERA was 63% better than the rest of the National League's 3.03 mark, and 44% better than that of the runner-up in the ERA race.

Gibson pitched 13 shutouts in '68, and easily could have challenged Grover Alexander's record of 16. Besides the May 17 heartbreaker, Gibson twice pitched a complete game victory in which the only run he allowed was unearned. In all, he had 11 games in which he allowed just one run, several of them flukish. Five times during the season, he had a streak of 20+ scoreless innings. Remarkably, Gibson had a 1.83 ERA (but only a 9-9 record) in games he did NOT pitch a shutout.

From June 2 through July 30, 1968, Bob Gibson put on the greatest two-month display of pitching in baseball history. In a stretch of 99 innings, he gave up just TWO RUNS. One scored on a wild pitch ("a catchable ball," according to opposing first baseman Wes Parker), and the other on a bloop double which was fair by inches. Those were the only things standing between Gibby and ten straight shutouts.

It started with a complete-game, 6-3 victory on June 2, in which Gibson whitewashed the Mets in the last two frames. He then ran off five shutouts in a row, beating the Astros (June 6), Braves (June 11), Reds (June 15), Cubs (June 20), and Pirates (June 26). Over the 45 innings, he surrendered just 21 hits and five walks. He was threatening the records of six straight shutouts and 58 consecutive scoreless innings set by the Dodgers' Don Drysdale just a month earlier. And his next start would be on July 1 –- against Drysdale!

The drama ended early, when a low fastball eluded back-up catcher Johnny Edwards in the first inning, allowing a Dodger run to score. Undaunted, Gibby blanked L.A. the rest of the way to win, 5-1, then shut out the Giants five days later. On July 12, Gibson gave up just three hits in a win over Houston, but one was Denis Menke's seventh-inning blooper that landed just inside the left field foul line and plated a run.

On July 17, the Giants paid Gibson the supreme compliment, scratching scheduled starter Juan Marichal so as not to waste their ace against an invincible opponent. It paid off: Gibson had a 6-0 lead after four innings, but the game was rained out, just short of official status, and Marichal won the next day.

Gibby followed with shutouts over the Mets (July 21) and Phillies (July 25) before allowing a fourth-inning run against New York on July 30. He won that game and added three more victories in August to complete a 15-game winning streak, including ten shutouts and a 0.68 ERA.

Gibson was never knocked out of the box during the season, completing 28 of 34 starts and being pinch-hit for late in the other six, as he averaged 8.96 innings per start. Gibson's worst ERA in any month was 1.97 in April. His worst against any team was 2.11 vs. Los Angeles. Help from his home park, Busch Stadium? Gibson's road ERA that year was 0.79.

Gibson continued his dominance into Game Seven of the 1968 World Series against Detroit. In his first 24-2/3 innings of the Fall Classic, he struck out 34 batters, and allowed just 11 hits, three walks, and one run for a 0.36 ERA. Suddenly, he ran out of magic, coughing up four runs on seven hits in the last 2-1/3 innings of the finale. Fittingly, the Cardinals didn't score until there were two out in the ninth inning, and lost, 4-1.

And so ended a pitching season for the ages.

Bill Deane has authored hundreds of baseball articles and six books, including Award Voting, winner of the 1989 SABR-Macmillan Award. He served as Senior Research Associate for the National Baseball Library & Archive from 1986-94. He has since done consulting work for Topps Baseball Cards, Curtis Management Group, STATS, Inc., and Macmillan Publishing, and also served as Managing Editor of the most recent Total Baseball.

[timwakefield]

From June 2 through July 30, 1968, Bob Gibson put on the greatest two-month display of pitching in baseball history. In a stretch of 99 innings, he gave up just TWO RUNS. One scored on a wild pitch ("a catchable ball," according to opposing first baseman Wes Parker), and the other on a bloop double which was fair by inches. Those were the only things standing between Gibby and ten straight shutouts.

That is what I was remembering.

[jeff_536]

Koufax only pitched for 12 years, and first two were cups of coffee, 41 and 58 IP..

So he was a regular for 10 years.

his W/L record for his first four full seasons was 5-4, 11-11, 8-6 and 8-13.

He didn't really become SANDY KOUFAX until 1961 and had six absolutely dominant years. Coincidentally, perhaps, the final five years of his career, and his five best years, happened once the Dodgers finally moved into Chavez Ravine, one of the best pitcher's parks in the majors.

Gibson was better for a longer period of time, having at least 10 years as good as Koufax's.

Both were great, but I'd take Gibson if I was starting a team and would have them for their whole career.

[PMJackson21]

Koufax only pitched for 12 years, and first two were cups of coffee, 41 and 58 IP..

So he was a regular for 10 years.

his W/L record for his first four full seasons was 5-4, 11-11, 8-6 and 8-13.

He didn't really become SANDY KOUFAX until 1961 and had six absolutely dominant years. Coincidentally, perhaps, the final five years of his career, and his five best years, happened once the Dodgers finally moved into Chavez Ravine, one of the best pitcher's parks in the majors.

Gibson was better for a longer period of time, having at least 10 years as good as Koufax's.

Both were great, but I'd take Gibson if I was starting a team and would have them for their whole career.

I'd have to disagree with the bolded. Looking at both player's stats, I can see 3-4 years that are possibly comparable to Koufax 61-66, but at least 10? If you are generous to Gibson, then you can argue for the 8 seasons where he had at least 18 wins, but if you look at his volume of work as a whole for most of those seasons, his era, whip, k/9 ip, etc aren't on par to Koufax's in any of his big years (barring 68). Edit: To go further, Koufax won 25+ games three times, Gibson never did. If you look at their WHIP, Koufax finished his career with 4 straight <1.0, something Gibson only accomplished once in...wait for it....1968. And of course, averaging over a strike out per inning for your whole career is something few have accomplished, especially as a starter. The k/9 ip ratio obviously goes up his last 4 years as well.

Obviously only pitching until he was 30 hurt Koufax's overall career stats. Koufax 'developed' into what he was at age 25 and only pitched until he was 30, while Gibson had some of his best (including '68) _after_ he turned 30. If one could invent Tommy John surgery in '65/66 and effectively relieve Koufax of all the pain he endured (his last year he couldn't bend his arm straight, and for his last few years he had all his suits tailored so the left arm was shorter to compensate for the constant bend), then his final career stats (give him 3-5 more effective years, then most likely a few down years) would be a lot more impressive.

If I was going to take a pitcher for 10+ years of his career, I'd obviously take Gibson since Koufax didn't even pitch that long in his prime. If I was going to take a pitcher for 5 years of his career, I'd take Koufax and I'm pretty sure the numbers back me up on this. Having to pick between the two of them would obviously be a good problem to have and you can't go wrong either way.

[PMJackson21]

Koufax only pitched for 12 years, and first two were cups of coffee, 41 and 58 IP..

Also, not to nitpick, but those two seasons were not your typical 'cups of coffee', or at least how most people view that term. Koufax was a 'bonus baby', meaning he signed for over 4k (lol) so had to be with the big club for two full years before he could be sent to the minors. So, instead of a September call up sort of thing, he was pretty much dead weight on the roster because of his potential. I would compare it to something similar to how some of the high school basketball players who make the jump too early are treated. Too talented to not have on the roster, too inexperienced (and at times, bad) to play.

[SuitedAces21]

But I am horribly biased as a Cardinals fan. I can remember my Grandpa telling me about Gibson when I was a kid. Gramps has been a Cards fan since the 40's and besides Stan the Man, Gibby was his favorite.

[MDXS]

Yup pretty much....

Thanks for these quotes. I had never seen them before and they made me laugh out loud.

Good discussion too.

[jeff_536]

Also, not to nitpick, but those two seasons were not your typical 'cups of coffee', or at least how most people view that term. Koufax was a 'bonus baby', meaning he signed for over 4k (lol) so had to be with the big club for two full years before he could be sent to the minors. So, instead of a September call up sort of thing, he was pretty much dead weight on the roster because of his potential. I would compare it to something similar to how some of the high school basketball players who make the jump too early are treated. Too talented to not have on the roster, too inexperienced (and at times, bad) to play.

ya, that bonus baby crap was a horrible rule, penalizing the development of the very best young players.