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an exercise in counting outs...

Started by JaysonWeber, May 06 2005 07:09 PM

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#1 JaysonWeber

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:09 PM

You hold A :) Q :D Flop: J :) 2 :D 8 :spade:I know theres 1 or 2 different main ways to count outs/hidden outs etc..So how many outs do you count here when deciding what to do?
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

#2 allinbluff35

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:10 PM

8 outs i think
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#3 Vade

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:29 PM

I count 8 1/2 outs6 obvious outs for the Aces and Queens1.5 outs for your backdoor flush draw.5 outs for each of two backdoor straight drawsK-10 and 10-9Good question :D
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#4 Absolute

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:32 PM

how was this played post flophow many people in the pot, etc
i saw him at the riverbank. he was breaking bread and giving thanks. with crosses made of pipes and planks. leaned up against the nitrous tanks.
he said take a hit. hold your breath and i'll dunk your head. then when you wake up, you'll be high as hell and born again.

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#5 KDawgCometh

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:46 PM

JaysonWeber said:

You hold A :) Q :D  Flop: J :) 2 :D 8 :spade:I know theres 1 or 2 different main ways to count outs/hidden outs etc..So how many outs do you count here when deciding what to do?
okay, we have top pair outs, but I want to discount the Queen by 1 since it could complete a 109 straight. Now we shall give 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush and 1 out for the two backdoor straights that we can complete. So without knowing what the villina could hold we have at least 7.5 outs for two cards to come, IMO
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#6 Absolute

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:46 PM

KDawgCometh said:

JaysonWeber said:

You hold A :) Q :D  Flop: J :) 2 :D 8 :spade:I know theres 1 or 2 different main ways to count outs/hidden outs etc..So how many outs do you count here when deciding what to do?
okay, we have top pair outs, but I want to discount the Queen by 1 since it could complete a 109 straight. Now we shall give 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush and 1 out for the two backdoor straights that we can complete. So without knowing what the villina could hold we have at least 7.5 outs for two cards to come, IMO
this sounds right with the given info
i saw him at the riverbank. he was breaking bread and giving thanks. with crosses made of pipes and planks. leaned up against the nitrous tanks.
he said take a hit. hold your breath and i'll dunk your head. then when you wake up, you'll be high as hell and born again.

- The Hold Steady

#7 Vade

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:49 PM

Good point Kdawg.I had not considered weakening the Queen outs.Does this always occur if said card could potentially help the opponent, however unlikely?
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#8 JaysonWeber

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 08:05 PM

Vade said:

Good point Kdawg.I had not considered weakening the Queen outs.Does this always occur if said card could potentially help the opponent, however unlikely?
When counting outs online you ussually won't weaken your outs without having played 150+ hands, by that time you ussually have some notes on the player like.. "CD w OESD" - Call Down w/ OESDor "CR ep w 2 oc NFD" - Check/Raise from Early Position w/ 2 Overcards and Nutflush draw so... AKsuited or AQ suited in this case most the time.Absolute, counting these outs is nothing to do w/ player tendencies, we have none. Counting Outs determines what you do, I am not asking you if you are raising or calling, I am asking how many outs you have as this should be the first thing you do when faced with a hand!
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

#9 Absolute

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 08:07 PM

JaysonWeber said:

Vade said:

Good point Kdawg.I had not considered weakening the Queen outs.Does this always occur if said card could potentially help the opponent, however unlikely?
When counting outs online you ussually won't weaken your outs without having played 150+ hands, by that time you ussually have some notes on the player like.. "CD w OESD" - Call Down w/ OESDor "CR ep w 2 oc NFD" - Check/Raise from Early Position w/ 2 Overcards and Nutflush draw so... AKsuited or AQ suited in this case most the time.Absolute, counting these outs is nothing to do w/ player tendencies, we have none. Counting Outs determines what you do, I am not asking you if you are raising or calling, I am asking how many outs you have as this should be the first thing you do when faced with a hand!
ok then700 outs.im gonna be pissed if i dont catch one of those
i saw him at the riverbank. he was breaking bread and giving thanks. with crosses made of pipes and planks. leaned up against the nitrous tanks.
he said take a hit. hold your breath and i'll dunk your head. then when you wake up, you'll be high as hell and born again.

- The Hold Steady

#10 Guest_XXEddie_*

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 08:34 PM

unknownyou can only count out(to me) if you A) know what your opponent(s) haveB) That card(s) gives you the nuts

#11 wrto4556

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 09:10 PM

Figuring that you are somehow beat. You have 5.5 outs.1.5 queens.1.5 aces.1.5 for runner runner clubs.1 for runner runner straight.
back for kramit

#12 JaysonWeber

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 01:11 AM

XXEddie said:

unknownyou can only count out(to me) if you  A) know what your opponent(s) haveB) That card(s) gives you the nuts
How can you say that? You're just counting outs... The whole concept behind counting outs doesnt revolve around what they have.I think you should pick up SSHE Eddie... unless I'm really mis-understanding this post.
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

#13 JaysonWeber

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 01:15 AM

wrto4556 said:

Figuring that you are somehow beat. You have 5.5 outs.1.5 queens.1.5 aces.1.5 for runner runner clubs.1 for runner runner straight.
Yup, Was Waiting on someone to get it figured you'd nail it on the head Chris... so it's good others posted infront of you.You can't count the Aces and Queens as 6.I think that's one of the biggest flaws people have with counting outs, With 2 overcards and no huge straight draw if you are to hit one of them You count 2 overcards as 3 outs total, not 6.The bd Flush is 1.5 and the straight is 1, although sometimes I won't give this 1, i.e. there are 2 diamonds and you feel that someone is on the flush draw, that changes things slightly.
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:14 PM

I understand Kdawg's logic behind discounting one Q out for the possibility of it making a straight, but can someone explain why two overs is only counted as 3 total outs?

#15 wrto4556

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:16 PM

Because you are often reverse dominated. As in this case we have AQ on a J82 board. If someone has AJ or A8 we are screwed for our ace outs...same applies to QJ, Q8, 22, JJ, 88, T9...
back for kramit

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:20 PM

Gotcha. Don't know why I didn't see that along the same lines as the straight.

#17 Guest_XXEddie_*

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:31 PM

JaysonWeber said:

How can you say that? You're just counting outs... The whole concept behind counting outs doesnt revolve around what they have.I think you should pick up SSHE Eddie... unless I'm really mis-understanding this post.
I think outs do revolve around what your opponent has. If he has J8, your outs are different than if he has AKI think you hvae to remeber at the table that unless youve got a good read and put your opponent on a strong hand. You can never be "certain" of any outs unless the give you the nutsI understand everyone else's ideas/theory and the reasoning. I just prefer a different view on the issue
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