Fine Tuning Aggression

[MikeBauer26 0]

Hand for discussion from memory.Full Ring Poker Stars .05/.10 blinds all players more or less have a full stack,UTG+1 is ok. Nothing stupid. Regular stats. (20/5/1.9)I am mid position with A Q :diamond:UTG limps UTG+1 limpsMP1 foldsHero limps along.3 foldsSB fills up BB checksFlop (50 cent): 3 A Q :club:SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets .50, Hero raises 1$ to 1.50.Everybody folds. Here's my question:Does anybody like a flat call on the flop, hoping to extract more money from weak aces on later rounds? I realize my game used to be too passive/weak. For the last 4.000 hands I managed to get my AF up to 3.4 versus the 1.6 it used to be.I have basically stopped calling and adopted a "raise or fold"-approach when facing a bet.It seems to be getting me nowhere though My bankroll ist basically where it was 4.000 hands before.Am I playing too obvious?

[LJB723 0]

I have no problem with the flop raise. Your hand is under-repped, villain probably thought a good A would have raised pre-flop and that this flop was scary to small pairs or any other limping-type hands. He just didn't have anything to give you action with.But you have to be rasing this pre-flop, at least 2 limpers at guaranteed to come along and you will win yourself a much nicer pot than 50c when you do hit big like this.

[MikeBauer26 0]

[/color]='Friday, April 4th, 2008, 1:10 PM']I have no problem with the flop raise. Your hand is under-repped, villain probably thought a good A would have raised pre-flop and that this flop was scary to small pairs or any other limping-type hands. He just didn't have anything to give you action with.But you have to be rasing this pre-flop, at least 2 limpers at guaranteed to come along and you will win yourself a much nicer pot than 50c when you do hit big like this.

Agree. I still raise to little preflop. I started raising most pairs and high cards hand when I am first to enter the pot. (mostly to not telegraph my hand to pokertrackerusers who can put me on a very narrow range for raising only 2% of hands.)Against two UTG limpers I mostly limp along though with hands I might have raised otherweise. I would raise here with AA, KK, AK and QQ only.(probably this is dumb as it narrows down my hand range to attention paying users?.)In the given scenrio, what kind of hands would you raise from Heros Position against 2 UTG limpers?(Keep in mind it's a full ring)

[LJB723 0]

Agree. I still raise to little preflop. I started raising most pairs and high cards hand when I am first to enter pots.I limp along though against early callers. In the given scenrio, what kind of hands would you raise from Heros PoV?(Keep in mind it's a full ring)

You're in semi-late position, and seeing as I'm a 6max player I probably have a little looser opening range. But in fullring I still thing you should be raising a big A after limpers, are you saying you limp AK here? I think a limp along is good with good multiway hands; suited connecters, pocket pairs <99. So I'd be raising limpers with >AJ, pocket pairs >88 and the odd suited connecters, including broadways, to balance my range.

[Sheiky 0]

Raise pre, flat call the flop with people behind you.

[MikeBauer26 0]

Raise pre, flat call the flop with people behind you.

I am basically "the button" after the flop.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Just raise this pre. AQ isn't that great of a hand v. 4 limpers seeing a flop. If everyone folds, you'll be ahead of the game over time. Anyway, once we get there, we're dominating the board so much I don't know that I could do much more than min-raise and try to appear to price in a gutterball draw. If no one can pay you, then no one can pay you. *****Now, about aggression in general. Tell us more about the kinds of hands you would get more aggressive with? Random, unfocused, untargeted aggression is not likely to get results. I try to watch the first xx hands/orbits/minutes/whatever and learn who folds to aggression, who re-aggresses in response, etc. Once you know how the villain responds to aggression, then you can make judgements about how to focus and use it, rather than just bludgeoning a table with raises and calling it aggression. See the bully. Be the bully.

[Acid_Knight 2]

UTG+1's stats aren't really "regular," but I don't know what you mean by that anyway. It means that he is pretty passive preflop and plays a few extra hands in FR but doesn't come in raising.THe flop action is fine, but flat calling would be ok too.Raise preflop next time.

[MikeBauer26 0]

Tell us more about the kinds of hands you would get more aggressive with?

(assuming I have position)On the flop I mostly raise bets with any hand >= Top Pair and occasionaly (maybe 20%) with flush / straight /combo drawsOn the turn I mostly raise bets with hands >= Two pair and only call with draws when the odds are there or at least implied odds allow a call On the river I mostly raise with hands >= Sets unless the board shows a 4 card straight or flush and I am not likely to be called by weaker handsI am not raising with baby flushes and "idiot ends".

try to watch the first xx hands/orbits/minutes/whatever and learn who folds to aggression, who re-aggresses in response, etc.

There's a thought... I have a lot of notes on players but mostly on how happy they go broke with overpairs or top pairs. I should pay more attention to the stations when raising.My preflop raising strategy used to be based on sklansky's No Limit Holdem Book. But seems to be to tight still.

[simo_8ball 1]

(assuming I have position)On the flop I mostly raise bets with any hand >= Top Pair and occasionaly (maybe 20%) with flush / straight /combo drawsOn the turn I mostly raise bets with hands >= Two pair and only call with draws when the odds are there or at least implied odds allow a call On the river I mostly raise with hands >= Sets unless the board shows a 4 card straight or flush and I am not likely to be called by weaker handsI am not raising with baby flushes and "idiot ends".

This is horrible.I'll elaborate later.

[mtdesmoines 2]

(assuming I have position)________OK, so some villains have a good understanding of position and use it well. Others, well ... they just don't. There are some regulars I know that I could care less about position with them because they can be managed pretty easily from OOP. Example: I know several players who will fold to any CR or will check behind every time if they aren't holding the nuts. Pure and simple -- position is of little consequence when the villain is weak. I know players who c-bet hard and can raise any bet with nothing, just because they have position. I avoid playing OOP to strong players. ________On the flop I mostly raise bets with any hand >= Top Pair and occasionaly (maybe 20%) with flush / straight /combo draws________If you're only raising 20% of flop bets (especially if you're focused on using position better), you're leaking. This is where true aggression can manifest itself IMHO. Most people miss flops and will release their hand, so unless I'm fishing PF and totally whiff and see a board that hits the villain's range pretty hard, I'm not afraid to go after the chips with a "light holding." Do I get caught? Of course. I consider it the cost of advertising. Getting caught builds incredible action. And for me, action and aggression (EDIT: AND PROFIT) go hand in hand in hand.________On the turn I mostly raise bets with hands >= Two pair and only call with draws when the odds are there or at least implied odds allow a call ________The turn is the most critical street for action in NLHE IMHO. It sets up our action for the river. You need to decide what the villain's range is on the flop. OK, so how did the turn impact the villain's range? Act accordingly. The turn is less about "naked aggression" than it is about where the hands are shaping up. ________On the river I mostly raise with hands >= Sets unless the board shows a 4 card straight or flush and I am not likely to be called by weaker hands________If that's your standard, you are miles away from "aggressive." It's OK to be aggressive with hands < sets on the river. Most sharp players are going to know what your river calling/raising range is and start to exploit you here -- just when you've come so far through the hand -- it's where the value of our involvement in a hand becomes its most extreme. If you're going anywhere in poker, you need to get beyond level one thinking, which is basically, "this is what I have in my hand, so this is how I bet it. At its core, level one thinking assigns the hands you hold as having some arbitrary value v. the universe of possible hands out there and betting accordingly. It's OK to know what's in your hand, but you should have some sense of where you are in relation to the villain's hand. What does the villain think is strong? How does the villain react to aggression? What is the villain willing to go broke with? I'm going to suggest as an exercise, going to a penny table (whatever), taping over your hole cards (just play ATC -- your hand doesn't matter), and learning to observe other players and playing them accordingly. Represent made hands. Re-raise some villains hard. Come over the top if you think they'll fold anything but the nuts, and see if they do. You'll be subjected to a lot of mockery, because your ATC will roll over sometimes, but seriously, I think this might be a way to start playing outside yourself. ________I am not raising with baby flushes and "idiot ends". There's a thought ... I have a lot of notes on players but mostly on how happy they go broke with overpairs or top pairs. I should pay more attention to the stations when raising.My preflop raising strategy used to be based on sklansky's No Limit Holdem Book. But seems to be to tight still.________OK, you read the book. Now toss it because everyone else has read it too, and in an equal poker universe, the only winner is the rake. ________

[mtdesmoines 2]

I didn't proofread the post and made a couple edits after I submitted it. Just FYI

[MikeBauer26 0]

MTD, thanks for all the input.You are absolutely right in pointing out that I bluff-raise too little on flops. I am still getting used to the aggression thing and I figured doing it with good hands first would work out better for me. On the other hand it does make me very accountable which is bad.I think I am getting there... but very very very slowly... I will try and put more observancy in.Oh... btw... thanks again once more.In my first post I wrote that I am "normally staying even". I saved my hand histories since end of last year... let's just say my perception was wrong :-II'll post a graph tonite where one can get a pretty precisely identify when I started reading here and also started thinking a bit more about my hands ;-)Anyway. Simo, sorry for my horrible playing... I am willing to learn and try new things :-)Old stats:22/3/2 BBper100hands: lets not talk about itNew stats:17/5/3.sth (since march 1st) BBper100hands 2 ok... better than before... still not tooo exciting.Again: suggestions for a raising range in FullRing Games welcome.I am currently getting why people like 6 max so much. UTG and UTG+1 seldom get out of line in FR games.

[Sheiky 0]

I am basically "the button" after the flop.

Yeh but two people checked, someone bet and then you raised meaning it was now a bet and a raise cold back to two people behind you.

[simo_8ball 1]

Anyway. Simo, sorry for my horrible playing... I am willing to learn and try new things :-)

It wasn't a comment on your playing skills. I just think it is horrible to give yourself 'rules' to work by. I'll raise middle pair on the river if I think there's value in it. I'll also sometimes flat call with top set or better on the flop.You cannot, and must not, set up rules or guidelines like that."On the flop I mostly raise bets with any hand >= Top Pair and occasionaly (maybe 20%) with flush / straight /combo draws"You should be raising with draws a lot more than that. Draws should disguise your made hands. If you're only usually raising top pair+ on the flop I can just bet into you with any kind of pair/draw/air/overcards. Play combo draws like the nuts. Bet/raise/reraise/shove with them."On the turn I mostly raise bets with hands >= Two pair and only call with draws when the odds are there or at least implied odds allow a call"This is just super weak imo. You should be semibluffing draws on the turn as well as the flop. You should be protecting hands you feel are best, regardless of how weak they are. You should be bluff (and semi-bluff) raising scare cards. If you call the flop with middle pair and the turn completes the straight and the flush draws, that's a great spot to turn a flop value call into a turn bluff."On the river I mostly raise with hands >= Sets unless the board shows a 4 card straight or flush and I am not likely to be called by weaker hands"You should be value raising thinner. Not much more I can say there (other than the fact it polarises your range far too much to nuts or nothing)."I am not raising with baby flushes and "idiot ends"".Why not? Ok, if it's A8 on a board of 9TJQ, but if you have 56 on a 789xx board you should treat it as the nuts. Same with baby (two card) flushes. Unless you have a good reason for thinking someone's range is made up of a ton of higher flushes you should be raising.It sounds overall like you play far too passive in general. TBH, you shouldn't actually be facing many bets - you should be making them yourself. Calling requires a decision. Betting doesn't.

[simo_8ball 1]

Old stats:22/3/2 BBper100hands: lets not talk about itNew stats:17/5/3.sth (since march 1st) BBper100hands 2 ok... better than before... still not tooo exciting.Again: suggestions for a raising range in FullRing Games welcome.I am currently getting why people like 6 max so much. UTG and UTG+1 seldom get out of line in FR games.

I've spent a few hours discussing/analysing this with IBFT. You are too passive, and that is putting you in tough postflop spots. Stop calling, and you'll find that this game gets a LOT easier.17/5 should be 17/9 at least. I actually prefer to see 14/10ish.It is FAR easier and more profitable to make a c/bet with AQ on a 479 flop than it is to face one.You shouldn't be open limping at all. I really don't see the point of it. Maybe occasionally with 44 or 56s UTG or something. Even then it's marginal.Don't limp along. If there are two limpers to you, raise it up with 22+ and with suited connectors. Isolate in position. Raise it up and bet the flop.I have no idea what your blind stats are, but you are probably too loose passive. You're probably completing the SB too much, and you are probably calling too many raises.BTW, if you post a PokerEV graph I can guarantee that you'll have the green line WAY below the blue and red lines.

[MikeBauer26 0]

I've spent a few hours discussing/analysing this with IBFT. You are too passive, and that is putting you in tough postflop spots. Stop calling, and you'll find that this game gets a LOT easier.

On my way... this is what I tried in postflop play for the last 4,000 hands.Why will I want to raise limpers with Suited Connectors preflop? To get away with a continuation bet if I miss? Disguise of hand quality?My thoughts on SCs are that I don't mind multiway pots where people hit two pair against my straight or flush.If I raise the limpers I feel like I increased the pot preflop. If the limpers actually hit and bet out my drawing get's expensive. Then again if they limped pre and I raised, chances are they will check to me anyway. And if they bet into me I know where I am at.Am I getting there?I will post some stats ... within the hour...

[Sheiky 0]

On my way... this is what I tried in postflop play for the last 4,000 hands.Why will I want to raise limpers with Suited Connectors preflop? To get away with a continuation bet if I miss? Disguise of hand quality?My thoughts on SCs are that I don't mind multiway pots where people hit two pair against my straight or flush.If I raise the limpers I feel like I increased the pot preflop. If the limpers actually hit and bet out my drawing get's expensive. Then again if they limped pre and I raised, chances are they will check to me anyway. And if they bet into me I know where I am at.Am I getting there?I will post some stats ... within the hour...

People generaly limp because they haven't got anything good enough to raise with, if you raise you thin out the field to 1-2 players at which stage you can take the pot away on the flop with a C-bet. Having position and innitiative in a HU/3 way pot is often good enough to make the acctual value of your hand less important.

[IBFT 0]

Simo touched on it, and I'll elaborate. You need to bring your PFR up, 10 or 11 is best. Bring your VPIP down to 14-15. It may not seem like a lot, but it is. In this situation, now, you have the lead preflop in ~80% of the hands you play. With your current stats of 17/5, you have the lead in ~30%. Cutting down the fat on your preflop hand selection (in fullring) makes your post flop aggression easier. Now, you'll have to make some decisions preflop. If UTG/EP raises preflop and I look down at AQ in LP, this is either a 3bet or a fold for me a majority of the time. Same with 99. (This assumes that there are no calls in between. Calls in between drastically change the dynamics of the hand) Some of it is player dependant. If pf raiser has stats of 9/6, im folding the AQ preflop. This will also mean I'm not 3-betting with 99, but instead calling. But if someone with a pfr of 11+ opens the pot, I'm going 3-bet them with almost any hand I'd normally open with. Also reworking how you play suited connectors is a big thing, too. Now, my game has improved a lot since I reworked it to a tighter, more aggressive style, but that doesn't mean there's not time for being a check/call whore. But that comes down to reads more than a style. And you'll find that you'll be paying more attention to your reads if you're 3-betting more preflop, because you'll basically be playing on the seat of your pants for your entire session.

[MikeBauer26 0]

Edit. Graphs on nexz page

[Temporary Nuts 1]

See that hero limps along thing.That's where you need to fine tune your aggression.[/repeatpostofobviousadvice]

[MikeBauer26 0]

.

[simo_8ball 1]

can anyone see my graphics on 1st page?http://www.projektbericht.de/poker/evgraph.jpgHere shoud be my EVgraph

Site appears to be down.

[MikeBauer26 0]

ok here we go:thoughts?

[IBFT 0]

Okay, thoughts from your general stats: 1) Your flop and turn AF are good, your river AF seems a little too high to me.2) You need to raise more preflop3) Your attempt to steal blinds is way too low. Like severely low. You're losing a lot of value. You need to bump it up to 304) Personal preference, I would lower your VPIP about 3%, but the things above need to be changed first, imo. 5) You have 'no positional' awareness.a) Your VPIP from UTG and UTG+1 is about 2x what it should be. On top of that, you're open limping UTG/UTG+1 far too often. On my positional charts my UTG/UTG+1 VPIP = my PFR. Now, maybe you don't need to play this close to the vest, but I wouldn't want a VPIP to be more than PFR+1.B ) You seem to actually get tighter as you get close to the button. You need to loosen up in HJ/CO/BTN. You also need to raise more from these spots. People always say 'you don't want to play a bloated pot oop', okay, but when you're in position, you want to take advantage of that. Put pressure on the people that are oop. c) When you look at your stats, you should see a pretty big leap in VPIP from UTG to BTN. Mine, for example, goes like this: 9.71vpip utg => 22 btn. You dont want to be playing a lot of hands UTG, you'll be out of position, a lot. I know this is repeating some things Ive said already, but position is huge in holdem.6) I think your went to showdown is a bit low. I think it should be right around 25%.Also, here's a quick reference guide to your blue/green lines for pokerev:Your graph follows the same course as the green line in this graph.