50 replies to this topic

[NYIsles]

3 table sit 'n'go; 4 players left, all are in the money...PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converterBB (t9178)NYIsles (t7570)Button (t9437)SB (t14315)Preflop: NYIsles is UTG with [7d], [Ad]. NYIsles raises to t800.Flop: (t1675) [Jc], [6d], [Td] (2 players)NYIsles bets t1000, Button calls t1000.Turn: (t3675) [7h] (2 players)Final Pot: t3675Thanks...

[KDawgCometh]

edit this and use the converter, please

[gobears]

I would have bet 3x pre-flop; I don't really like to min-raise usually.Flop bet is fine but I would have lead on the turn also.I'm putting darc12 either on a weak J, maybe A 10, or possibly K Q. He could be on a pure draw and sensed weakness from your check.Since you're in 4th place I think that you potentially have up to 14 outs (9 diamonds, 3 aces, 2 sevens) although the A may not be good if he has A 10 or K Q.I think that I call because you're in the money and this moves you into 1st place if you win this hand.

[looshle]

I definately wouldn't have checked on the turn, as your hand improved and gave him control of the hand, you might have been able to bet 1500-2000 here and get to see the river for that price instead but now that it's 6000 to call I don't think you can call. Bet into him on the turn, you've only got 3rd pair right now with probably 14 outs. It's too expensive now.

[looshle]

I definately wouldn't have checked on the turn, as your hand improved and gave him control of the hand, you might have been able to bet 1500-2000 here and get to see the river for that price instead but now that it's 6000 to call I don't think you can call. Bet into him on the turn, you've only got 3rd pair right now with probably 14 outs. It's too expensive now.

[Vade]

NYIsles said:

3 table sit 'n'go; 4 players left, all are in the money...PokerStars Game #1643946312: Tournament #7646346, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/05/05 - 20:36:31 (ET)Table '7646346 3' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 3: runner1173 (9178 in chips) Seat 4: NYIsles_fcp (7570 in chips) Seat 5: darc12 (9437 in chips) Seat 9: Bert8152 (14315 in chips) runner1173: posts the ante 25NYIsles_fcp: posts the ante 25darc12: posts the ante 25Bert8152: posts the ante 25Bert8152: posts small blind 200runner1173: posts big blind 400*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to NYIsles_fcp [7d Ad]NYIsles_fcp: raises 400 to 800darc12: calls 800Bert8152: folds runner1173: folds Raise more preflop. A-7 suited is a decent enough hand being first to act*** FLOP *** [Jc 6d Td]NYIsles_fcp: bets 1000darc12: calls 1000Nice flop...love the bet here.*** TURN *** [Jc 6d Td] [7h]NYIsles_fcp: checks darc12: bets 6000Call. You've improved enough. and you have a good amount of outsThanks...

[NYIsles]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. And btw, KDawg, I can't stand the converter. I prefer the style above.Thanks again...

[cdddc75]

Hard to say without a read on the opponent. Looks like he filled his straight on the turn.

[NYIsles]

Re: the turn bet (or lack thereof)...I was playing against a fairly passive player, who was checking a lot of heads-up hands down through the river. I was pretty sure I was behind at that point (after he called the flop bet), and I felt that if I fired another $2K into the pot on the turn, I'd be pot committed.I wanted the option of letting the hand go if I didn't improve, and I thought (based on prior actions) that I had a reasonable chance of having him check behind me.As it turns out, I folded the hand... and he showed me QTo. Perhaps good fortune, since I hit a set of aces on the next hand (lol)...On a related note, I was wondering if the concept of tournament EV should come into play when making a decision to call or fold in this situation. In other words, Paul Phillips, in his blog (re: the Le/Habib affair), went into great detail about calculating the probability of hitting your hand vs. the amount of potential winnings you risk if you don’t. Just wondering if any of you think that kind of specific calculation should come into play when making this kind of decision... frankly, I don’t know how anybody can do that kind of analysis accurately on the fly...

[Absolute]

OH MY GOD USE THE CONVERTER MY EYES ARE KILLING ME

[NYIsles]

OH MY GOD USE THE CONVERTER MY EYES ARE KILLING MEyou've got to be kidding...I think the coverter sucks. If you can't read this simple transcript, don't respond to the post.Thanks...

[gobears]

NYIsles said:

On a related note, I was wondering if the concept of tournament EV should come into play when making a decision to call or fold in this situation.  In other words, Paul Phillips, in his blog (re: the Le/Habib affair), went into great detail about calculating the probability of hitting your hand vs. the amount of potential winnings you risk if you don’t.  Just wondering if any of you think that kind of specific calculation should come into play when making this kind of decision... frankly, I don’t know how anybody can do that kind of analysis accurately on the fly...

Paul's post was very interesting - I think that if I was capable of making those calculations on the fly, it would be very useful. From an on-line perspective, the first part of determining the projected EV for if you call (win) or call (lose) or fold is easy since the amounts are just sitting out there on the screen.If you have your spreadsheet open, you just plug those three EV numbers in to solve for P(w) which is the minimum probability of winning requirement.Based on this P(w) and the range of hands you put the other player on, you can probably estimate what your play should be.I guess that what's the time bank is good for in online poker; so you can plus all these numbers in. I might try this in my next tourney; have Excel open with the P(w) formula ready for input.Now in live play, there's no way I would ever think of doing this.

[rog]

1) The converter is not about what you like. You are asking the forum for advice, and the consensus of the forum is that the converter is a Good Thing, so we're just asking you to be considerate.2) Your pot odds are something like 1.5:1, so you need a lot of outs to call this bet. You have 9 outs to the flush, and 5 outs to 2 pair or trips. Those 5 outs might not always win, so I'd discount them to 3 or 4 outs. You need AT LEASt 2.5: 1 to call. Can you get another 7k in the pot on the river if you call here? If so the implied odds are okay, but strictly by pot odds a call is not okay.

[cdddc75]

rog said:

1)  The converter is not about what you like.  You are asking the forum for advice, and the consensus of the forum is that the converter is a Good Thing, so we're just asking you to be considerate.2)  Your pot odds are something like 1.5:1, so you need a lot of outs to call this bet.  You have 9  outs to the flush, and 5 outs to 2 pair or trips.  Those 5 outs might not always win, so I'd discount them to 3 or 4 outs.  You need AT LEASt 2.5: 1 to call.  Can you get another 7k in the pot on the river if you call here?  If so the implied odds are okay, but strictly by pot odds a call is not okay.

He would be calling all in.Fold time.

[NYIsles]

2) Your pot odds are something like 1.5:1, so you need a lot of outs to call this bet. You have 9 outs to the flush, and 5 outs to 2 pair or trips. Those 5 outs might not always win, so I'd discount them to 3 or 4 outs. You need AT LEASt 2.5: 1 to call. Can you get another 7k in the pot on the river if you call here? If so the implied odds are okay, but strictly by pot odds a call is not okay.Agreed, which is why I folded... but I think there's more to it than pot odds (hence the comment re: tournament EV, which was really the original gist of the post...)

[rog]

cdddc75 said:

rog said:

1)  The converter is not about what you like.  You are asking the forum for advice, and the consensus of the forum is that the converter is a Good Thing, so we're just asking you to be considerate.2)  Your pot odds are something like 1.5:1, so you need a lot of outs to call this bet.  You have 9  outs to the flush, and 5 outs to 2 pair or trips.  Those 5 outs might not always win, so I'd discount them to 3 or 4 outs.  You need AT LEASt 2.5: 1 to call.  Can you get another 7k in the pot on the river if you call here?  If so the implied odds are okay, but strictly by pot odds a call is not okay.

He would be calling all in.Fold time.

I missed the stack size. Yup...fold

[RonBurgundy]

don't min raise, a7s deserves a standard raise preflop 4 handed.if you're betting the draw on the flop, which i like, bet at least half the pot if not 3/4.don't give up control of the hand on the turn when you actually improve your hand.as for the all-in, you shouldnt have put yourself in that situation by doing any/all of the above BUT, lets give it a shot:there is 10300 in the pot. in your best situation other than being up against a bluff, you are going against top pair. have your 3 ace outs, your 2 sevens, and your 9 diamonds.14 outs means you're about 2.3 to 1. You're getting less than 2:1 on your call, so unless you think he's on a bluff, lay it down and look for a better spot. You will still have over 10 BBs if you lay down here, so it's okay.

[KDawgCometh]

XXEddie said:

NYIsles said:

OH MY GOD USE THE CONVERTER MY EYES ARE KILLING MEyou've got to be kidding...I think the coverter sucks.  If you can't read this simple transcript, don't respond to the post.Thanks...

THANK YOUhalf the people here dont know how to use it and its even harder to read, I dont have anything against the converter, I just dont see the HUGE difference

the converter isn't fucking rocket science. You paste your hand from the HH put it in the left box put the forum transcript on bet the pot, press the convert hand button, and voila, you have the hand converted. It is eaiser to read and keeps track of pot size. Also it isn't nice to be posting up other people's screen names. If they screw up a hand they should be able to remain anonymous. I don't see how almost every other forum out there has no problem with its posters using the converter and yet this forum has so many indignant posters about using it

[NYIsles]

It's easy to use, but it's also much more difficult to read. Taking the standard hand history and then cleaning it up a bit (separating the flop, turn and river sections, for example) is a much better solution than the hand converter.Data is easier read/digested vertically as opposed to horizontally...