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Getting Cute With Aces


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#21 dms26

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:51 AM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 2:27 PM, said:

Hey... I can't see how you went to war in that 08 hand with just TP and no low draw, but it worked out :club:
I had the nut low, I just didn't expect to scoop with TP.
QUOTE (CozMyn @ Sunday, March 8th, 2009, 5:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i tried to talk here about that program, the RNG , not to talk about when to accept all in without to see flop.
You can accept all in whenever you want, or whenever you feel lucky, but in virtual room's is not like in reality. In reality anything is possible... in virtual rooms you can be "the one" who knows the future, or who can change the future.

#22 dms26

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:59 AM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 2:29 PM, said:

Since you had the most thought out response, let me ask you this. What hands would you raise the turn with when a T hits against a guy betting out of the SB on a 652 flop twice?
I think that is the problem, he can have a pretty wide range and I don't think we do very well against it. Would he raise here with just a T very often? I think villain raising with something like KT JT ect is bad because most of the time you are only calling with a flush draw or a better hand.
QUOTE (CozMyn @ Sunday, March 8th, 2009, 5:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i tried to talk here about that program, the RNG , not to talk about when to accept all in without to see flop.
You can accept all in whenever you want, or whenever you feel lucky, but in virtual room's is not like in reality. In reality anything is possible... in virtual rooms you can be "the one" who knows the future, or who can change the future.

#23 El Guapo

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:30 AM

Result Josh?

#24 Jadaki

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:58 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 1:38 PM, said:

If you really did play AA like this, can you explain why you thought that the best play was to slowplay that hand OOP to the whole field, which was all but guaranteed to be 4 opponents that you had no information about their hands? Do you see why this is such a massive mistake? It's not mixing up your play, it's just playing badly. I know that you don't want to hear about preflop choices, but this hand would be much more interesting if you raised to $12 and got 4 callers and the hand played out like it did.
I don't think it was the best play, I never claimed it was. I played it this way because after being super aggressive with aces twice recently I wanted to try something different and put myself in a difficult spot post flop with it. In retrospect, yes you are right. ABC poker would have been better here or doing this in position would have been better.I'm asking for how people would proceed on the turn. I'm curious how people proceed with very underrepresented aces facing a turn raise.I'm not posting the results of the hand right now EG.

#25 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:08 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

I don't think it was the best play, I never claimed it was. I played it this way because after being super aggressive with aces twice recently I wanted to try something different and put myself in a difficult spot post flop with it. In retrospect, yes you are right. ABC poker would have been better here or doing this in position would have been better.I'm asking for how people would proceed on the turn. I'm curious how people proceed with very underrepresented aces facing a turn raise.I'm not posting the results of the hand right now EG.
One thing that you really should take into consideration is, "what does it matter if I have have AA here?"By that I mean, how is AA any different than 99? Well, obviously if he had Tx, then he's ahead of 99. Are there any other differences? I don't really see many. Yeah, you have AA, but it's not like much (read: hardly any) of his range is made up of hands that care if you have 1 pair or not. I mean, he's got a draw of some kind or a hand that beats one-pair hands here almost always. With AA, the only hand you're really ahead of is Txss. Granted, if you had JJ and he decided to raise K9ss on the turn, he'd have another couple of outs than he would if you're holding AA, but essentially you have a 1 pair hand and almost all 1 pair hands are in the same shape against his range.Basically, it's not like he's showing up with JJ-KK here ever, so having AA isn't a huge departure from having A6 or something.

#26 dms26

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:08 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 3:58 PM, said:

I don't think it was the best play, I never claimed it was. I played it this way because after being super aggressive with aces twice recently I wanted to try something different and put myself in a difficult spot post flop with it. In retrospect, yes you are right. ABC poker would have been better here or doing this in position would have been better.I'm asking for how people would proceed on the turn. I'm curious how people proceed with very underrepresented aces facing a turn raise.I'm not posting the results of the hand right now EG.
Given your read and the small amount if chips you've put into the pot I fold. You fold the best hand sometimes in this spot but if you call you're also probably going to call a river bet with a worse hand more often.
QUOTE (CozMyn @ Sunday, March 8th, 2009, 5:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i tried to talk here about that program, the RNG , not to talk about when to accept all in without to see flop.
You can accept all in whenever you want, or whenever you feel lucky, but in virtual room's is not like in reality. In reality anything is possible... in virtual rooms you can be "the one" who knows the future, or who can change the future.

#27 Jadaki

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:09 PM

View Postdms26, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 1:59 PM, said:

Would he raise here with just a T very often? I think villain raising with something like KT JT ect is bad because most of the time you are only calling with a flush draw or a better hand.
652 with two to a suit is a draw heavy board. The only T I could put in his hand is if its TsXs. ATss would make sense, but I had the ace so....More villain history regarding set play. On a previous hand where he limp/called a 20 dollar raise preflop and the flop was 875 rainbow he checkraised two people huge over betting the pot by a significant margin with a set of 5's. If he is really scared of draws, he seems to bet very big to get people out. That seemed to be an atypical play from him anytime he hit a set.Knowing that I wasn't putting him on a set in this hand or I think I would have seen a larger bet on the turn or even more action on the flop since there were two people in the hand ahead of him.That information probably should have been in the OP, sorry.

#28 Jadaki

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:13 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 3:08 PM, said:

One thing that you really should take into consideration is, "what does it matter if I have have AA here?"By that I mean, how is AA any different than 99? Well, obviously if he had Tx, then he's ahead of 99. Are there any other differences? I don't really see many. Yeah, you have AA, but it's not like much (read: hardly any) of his range is made up of hands that care if you have 1 pair or not. I mean, he's got a draw of some kind or a hand that beats one-pair hands here almost always. With AA, the only hand you're really ahead of is Txss. Granted, if you had JJ and he decided to raise K9ss on the turn, he'd have another couple of outs than he would if you're holding AA, but essentially you have a 1 pair hand and almost all 1 pair hands are in the same shape against his range.Basically, it's not like he's showing up with JJ-KK here ever, so having AA isn't a huge departure from having A6 or something.
Yea I'm not putting him on KK-JJ here, the call on the flop makes me lean toward a draw. I wasn't thinking "I have aces here, how can I lose?", I was thinking there is no way he can put me on an over pair here because he thinks I would be raising AA-JJ.You make good points.

#29 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:21 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 1:09 PM, said:

That information probably should have been in the OP, sorry.
That does make a difference. I still think the safe (correct?) play here would be to fold most of the time though, but that information would push me closer to shoving.

#30 dms26

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:24 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 4:09 PM, said:

More villain history regarding set play. On a previous hand where he limp/called a 20 dollar raise preflop and the flop was 875 rainbow he checkraised two people huge over betting the pot by a significant margin with a set of 5's. If he is really scared of draws, he seems to bet very big to get people out. That seemed to be an atypical play from him anytime he hit a set.
This seems like a different situation, if he called a 20 raise preflop that's at least $60 in pot preflop, then he check-raises the flop. The pot must have already been pretty big and he figures to get called most of the time. So I wouldn't always rule out sets here, I know I don't always play them the same way.I just think you're in a really bad spot here, it's really hard to put villain on a hand. He's giving you such a good price to call, seems like he isn't trying to get you to go away.
QUOTE (CozMyn @ Sunday, March 8th, 2009, 5:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i tried to talk here about that program, the RNG , not to talk about when to accept all in without to see flop.
You can accept all in whenever you want, or whenever you feel lucky, but in virtual room's is not like in reality. In reality anything is possible... in virtual rooms you can be "the one" who knows the future, or who can change the future.

#31 Jadaki

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:35 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 3:21 PM, said:

That does make a difference. I still think the safe (correct?) play here would be to fold most of the time though, but that information would push me closer to shoving.
So your order would be Fold, Push, Call?

#32 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:36 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 1:35 PM, said:

So your order would be Fold, Push, Call?
I dunno. You're still pretty deep. I think I'd fold>call (call most rivers too)>push

#33 TrueAce13

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:02 PM

How has villain played straights/ large draws (overs/flush draw even straight flush draw)? I agree that with how deep stacks are it is fold>call>shove. In a limp pot it is possible for him to have a hand like 56 and now we are just hoping to hit our 8 outs
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#34 mikednuts

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:34 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 1:09 PM, said:

652 with two to a suit is a draw heavy board. The only T I could put in his hand is if its TsXs. ATss would make sense, but I had the ace so....More villain history regarding set play. On a previous hand where he limp/called a 20 dollar raise preflop and the flop was 875 rainbow he checkraised two people huge over betting the pot by a significant margin with a set of 5's. If he is really scared of draws, he seems to bet very big to get people out. That seemed to be an atypical play from him anytime he hit a set.Knowing that I wasn't putting him on a set in this hand or I think I would have seen a larger bet on the turn or even more action on the flop since there were two people in the hand ahead of him.That information probably should have been in the OP, sorry.
But in all fairness he's playing that hand that way in the face of a $20 preflop raise so he's trying to drive out draws and hoping to get action from an overpair if the original raiser was strong and puts him on the draw.In this hand the villain doesn't have a great reason to believe that he's up against a big overpair and would be less inclined to play it that way, so I don't think this example gives us much reason to eliminate a set from his range. Now Acid will tell me why I'm wrong.

#35 Canute

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:40 PM

Yes you got really cute with these. But you don't want to talk about that.So, lets pretend you didn't make a huge mistake here preflop.The flop bet is a good pot sized bet as you don't want anyone to draw too cheaply when you just have the big pair.A couple of callers to the flop bet means possible draws or slowplayed two pairs and sets or potentially a medium pair. There is a flush and straight draw out.The turn bet of 18 is smallish in relation to the $43 pot and the villian raises it up to $50. Maybe he senses weakness and is pushing his draw or perhaps he has a hand like AT. Or he has two pair or a set or a medium pocket pair he is trying to protect. Small possiblility of a bluff, but I think small. Dunno... You are out of position here. I think I would call and see what the river brings. If the river completes a draw and he bets, you probably needt to fold. If the river is a blank and he bets, you will have a hard decision. Maybe he will check it down which is the best you can hope for. Either way, I don't think I would call a big bet on the river. My second (very close second) is to lay it down to the turn raise.In the future, I would avoid getting cute with aces.

#36 David_Nicoson

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:44 PM

View PostCanute, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 5:40 PM, said:

You have position. I think you call and see what the river brings.
Hero is out of position.
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#37 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:46 PM

View PostCanute, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 2:40 PM, said:

You have position. I think you call and see what the river brings. If the river completes a draw and he bets, you probably needt to fold. If the river is a blank and he bets, you will have a hard decision. If he checks the river, then you can probably just check behind. Either way, I don't think I would call a giant bet on the river. But I don't see how you can lay this down on the turn.
The SB never has position.

#38 Jadaki

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:02 PM

View Postmikednuts, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 4:34 PM, said:

But in all fairness he's playing that hand that way in the face of a $20 preflop raise so he's trying to drive out draws and hoping to get action from an overpair if the original raiser was strong and puts him on the draw.In this hand the villain doesn't have a great reason to believe that he's up against a big overpair and would be less inclined to play it that way, so I don't think this example gives us much reason to eliminate a set from his range. Now Acid will tell me why I'm wrong.
That was one example of a villain playing a hand that hit the flop really hard with draws on the board just from this session, past experience with the villain says it's fairly consistent in a raised or a limped pot. He could be changing it up, but it's unlikely. If he is scared of a draw, he overbets. A smaller bet had me thinking either 2 pair, pair and a draw, combo draw (straight & Flush) or maybe even just trying to buy it though I think that is a small % of the time given his history.Given that info, aces being under represented and stack sizes, hero calls (at this point regretting not raising preflop.... yea I know already).River: 8dPot is 143.00. A few straight draws get there, no flush though. Hero has villain covered and he is about 170 behind at this point.Lead out or check?*I wont be back to check on this till tomorrow, have fun ripping it apart.

#39 Canute

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:21 PM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 2:44 PM, said:

Hero is out of position.
Yes, sorry my mistake. He is out of position. See edited message.

#40 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:23 PM

View PostJadaki, on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 3:02 PM, said:

That was one example of a villain playing a hand that hit the flop really hard with draws on the board just from this session, past experience with the villain says it's fairly consistent in a raised or a limped pot. He could be changing it up, but it's unlikely. If he is scared of a draw, he overbets. A smaller bet had me thinking either 2 pair, pair and a draw, combo draw (straight & Flush) or maybe even just trying to buy it though I think that is a small % of the time given his history.Given that info, aces being under represented and stack sizes, hero calls (at this point regretting not raising preflop.... yea I know already).River: 8dPot is 143.00. A few straight draws get there, no flush though. Hero has villain covered and he is about 170 behind at this point.Lead out or check?*I wont be back to check on this till tomorrow, have fun ripping it apart.
Check obviously. There's no value to be had from missed draws. He's gonna bet some of those as well as hands that beat you anyway, so it's time to check and see what he does.




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