Three Overpairs

[IBFT 0]

Hand 1:Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)saw flop|saw showdownUTG+1 ($49)MP1 ($84.55)MP2 ($53.65)MP3 ($118.10)Hero ($54.35)Button ($8.75)SB ($73.20)BB ($107.20)UTG ($28.40)Preflop: Hero is CO with , . 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.75.Flop: ($5.25) , , (2 players)MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.5, MP1 raises to $7, Hero raises to $20, MP1 raises to $89.3 (All-In), Hero ???.My read on this villain was sorta, i dunno, my personal feeling was passive, but poker trackers numbers tell me different (passive preflop, but an aggro tard on the flop/turn)16.27/3.35/5.25 AF(6.00 flop, 3.0 turn, infinity sign river)Should I have just smoooth called the check raise and re-eval'd turn?Hand 2:Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)saw flop|saw showdownHero ($69.50)CO ($56.85)Button ($168.35)SB ($46.35)BB ($54.35)UTG ($83.80)UTG+1 ($54.25)MP1 ($50)MP2 ($22.30)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with , . 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, Button calls $1.75, 2 folds.Flop: ($6) , , (4 players)Hero bets $3.5, CO raises to $7, Button folds, Hero raises to $18.5, CO raises to $62.1 (All-In), Hero???This hand, I felt he was more aggressive, especially in position. Uhm... Hard to give what my description is. Typical overnight player, loves to try to push people around, but Im not sure it extended to all ins.24/10/2

[IBFT 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($21.55)Button ($60.95)SB ($49.75)BB ($19.25)Hero ($51.85)UTG+1 ($66.50)MP1 ($160.60)MP2 ($35.80)MP3 ($45)Preflop: Hero is UTG with , . Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1.75, MP3 calls $1.75, 4 folds.Flop: ($6) , , (3 players)Hero bets $3.5, MP2 calls $3.50, MP3 calls $3.50.Turn: ($16.50) (3 players)Hero bets $9, MP2 raises to $30.55 (All-In), MP3 folds, Hero ???Didnt really have a read on this villain. I had been really aggro at this table preflop, was raising and reraising a lot of hands. Villain is 24/2/1.4I would say that overpairs are my least favorite hand to play in hold em, so any advice on how I can play these situations better would be appreciated. Thanks

[whatgreatis 0]

Hand 1: That limp/call is more or less a sign of players set mining but we can't exclude the possibility that he has QJ/KJ/AJ(maybe) and with those PT stats I call. Against some villains this is a easy fold. Flop bet should be $4.50-4.75Hand 2: I think he could have a hand like AdKd/4d5d/sets/A9. Basically villain is either ahead or he's got a lot of outs. When you 3bet on that flop you need to go more, something like $24-28. Flop bet should be $5-5.50Hand 3: I think this is a 9 way more often than a 4. I'm pretty sure you're ahead. Again, I think flop bet should be $4.50-5 and turn bet should be $14.

[MikeBauer26 0]

Hand 1: EDITEDYou played it like a missed AK or something. So it's probably a good move for him to try and push you of that with AJ.Hmmm edited... on 2nd thoughts I think I call here. Hes probably not giving you credit for aces.I Fold.Hand 2:Again, the contibet is not repping an overpair and his first reraise could have been done with any two cards. The second reraise all in can be the diamond draw or a lot of hands have you crushed.I Fold.Hand 3:As this is a fullring perhaps limping with TT UTG is ok.Again, the contibet seems weak and screams "raise me".He could have 88 or JJ and wants to prevent you from drawing to the fatal overcards.I Fold.I am such a folder. I have a tight image and can usually get away with a missed AK by firing pot-sized bets.What factors speak against higher bets on each flop here? Do we want to extract value? And if so, from which hands?If I am called for a PSB I am most certainly dead and move on, that is except for Hand 2 with the draw, where I would bet a non diamond & non overcard-flop.Am I too tight?

[d0c 0]

Hand 1 is weird because of conflicting reads (Hero's read and stats). Based on stats I think villain does it with J also and so it becomes call. If J is not part of his range then it's a clear fold.Board: 2s 4d JsWins Ties Equity56.63% 0.02% 56.65% ( AdAh ) 43.33% 0.02% 43.35% ( JT, As4s, 5s6s, 22,44 ) Hand 24bet allin shows super strength and should be respected until solid read says otherwise. Range of super draw and sets have you crushed. FoldHand 3It doesn't seem that villain has FH here: why slowplay flop but not turn IP? Based on the read villain has on you I think it's a call as his range includes 9 or PP and you have at least 50% equity against that range.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Hand 1:Should I have just smoooth called the check raise and re-eval'd turn?CALLHand 2:This hand, I felt he was more aggressive, especially in position. Uhm... Hard to give what my description is. Typical overnight player, loves to try to push people around, but Im not sure it extended to all ins.24/10/2FOLD

Didnt really have a read on this villain. I had been really aggro at this table preflop, was raising and reraising a lot of hands. Villain is 24/2/1.4I would say that overpairs are my least favorite hand to play in hold em, so any advice on how I can play these situations better would be appreciated. ThanksFOLD

[Acid_Knight 2]

Please stop 3 betting flops without knowing what you're gonna do if you get shoved on.

[IBFT 0]

Please stop 3 betting flops without knowing what you're gonna do if you get shoved on.

Okay, so when I get raised on the flop when I have an overpair, is your suggestion to call and re-evaluate? This one liner quips are great and all; but I already realize Im probably misplaying some of these hands, so thats why I'm posting.Even the 'good' posters are doing this now. weeeOne more thing, actually. My generally thought is, if I 3-bet and get repopped on the flop, and its relatively dry, I'm going to fold. My reason for posting these is they're relatively similar (except for hand #3), and I'm trying to find out the optimal way to play these. I don't know if 3-bet/fold is the best line here. Obviously reads are important, but, for example, a lot of people are saying to all in the AA hand but fold in hand #2. Where my feeling was 'limp/calling oop and then check raising and trying to get all of your chips in on a jack high flop is usually a set' and 'calling a raise in position and then being agressive on a 9 high flop isnt quite as strong'. Those are just MY personal general thoughts. That doesnt make them right or wrong, thats just my thought process.

[whatgreatis 0]

Am I the only one that thinks his betting sizes are a little low?

[IBFT 0]

Am I the only one that thinks his betting sizes are a little low?

Hand number 2 and 3 are both small, they should have been 4.5 and not 3.5. Probably doesn't make much difference in your eyes, as most people will say 'bet 5 or the pot', but I just normally do a 3/4 bet pot. But as I found out when I was going over HHs with Simo, there are certain stretches of time where despite my general rule of 3/4 pot, I often go lower than that for absolutely no good reason. Guess I need to get a helper program to make my bet sizes for me since I'm too blonde to do it on my own.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Okay, so when I get raised on the flop when I have an overpair, is your suggestion to call and re-evaluate? This one liner quips are great and all; but I already realize Im probably misplaying some of these hands, so thats why I'm posting.Even the 'good' posters are doing this now. weeeOne more thing, actually. My generally thought is, if I 3-bet and get repopped on the flop, and its relatively dry, I'm going to fold. My reason for posting these is they're relatively similar (except for hand #3), and I'm trying to find out the optimal way to play these. I don't know if 3-bet/fold is the best line here. Obviously reads are important, but, for example, a lot of people are saying to all in the AA hand but fold in hand #2. Where my feeling was 'limp/calling oop and then check raising and trying to get all of your chips in on a jack high flop is usually a set' and 'calling a raise in position and then being agressive on a 9 high flop isnt quite as strong'. Those are just MY personal general thoughts. That doesnt make them right or wrong, thats just my thought process.

No, I mean that IF you're going to 3-bet (which is fine) then you need to make up your mind BEFORE you 3-bet that:1. If he shoves, I'm going to ________2. If he calls, I'm going to ____________ on the next street3. If he folds, I'm going to collect his mobnies. (this was the easy one, so I filled it in for you)

[IBFT 0]

No, I mean that IF you're going to 3-bet (which is fine) then you need to make up your mind BEFORE you 3-bet that:1. If he shoves, I'm going to ________2. If he calls, I'm going to ____________ on the next street3. If he folds, I'm going to collect his mobnies. (this was the easy one, so I filled it in for you)

I just assume that if I 3-bet that #3 is going to happen 100% of the time. Unfortunately it only happens about 2.3% of the time, so the other 97.7% fo the time Im suffering from a bad beat and Im dazed and confused. I didnt used to 3-bet on the flop like this before. Normally if I had an overpair and I started facing heat I'd go into check/call mode and try to show it down, but I've been told that thats being too much of a sissy. And my wife already thinks of me as a sissy, so I'd like to prevent the online poker community from thinking the same.

[Acid_Knight 2]

And my wife already thinks of me as a sissy, so I'd like to prevent the online poker community from thinking the same.

Sorry to hear that.Depending on your opponents and their tendencies, combined with their views of you and flop texture, you're often fine just 3-betting and calling the shove on a lot of boards.I'd probably shove hand 1 and fold hands 2 and 3.

[Canute 0]

Hand 1:Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)saw flop|saw showdownUTG+1 ($49)MP1 ($84.55)MP2 ($53.65)MP3 ($118.10)Hero ($54.35)Button ($8.75)SB ($73.20)BB ($107.20)UTG ($28.40)Preflop: Hero is CO with , . 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.75.Flop: ($5.25) , , (2 players)MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.5, MP1 raises to $7, Hero raises to $20, MP1 raises to $89.3 (All-In), Hero ???.My read on this villain was sorta, i dunno, my personal feeling was passive, but poker trackers numbers tell me different (passive preflop, but an aggro tard on the flop/turn)16.27/3.35/5.25 AF(6.00 flop, 3.0 turn, infinity sign river)Should I have just smoooth called the check raise and re-eval'd turn?Hand 2:Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)saw flop|saw showdownHero ($69.50)CO ($56.85)Button ($168.35)SB ($46.35)BB ($54.35)UTG ($83.80)UTG+1 ($54.25)MP1 ($50)MP2 ($22.30)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with , . 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, Button calls $1.75, 2 folds.Flop: ($6) , , (4 players)Hero bets $3.5, CO raises to $7, Button folds, Hero raises to $18.5, CO raises to $62.1 (All-In), Hero???This hand, I felt he was more aggressive, especially in position. Uhm... Hard to give what my description is. Typical overnight player, loves to try to push people around, but Im not sure it extended to all ins.24/10/2

Hand 1. You have a big pair and he just pushed all in. He is acting like he has a set or two pair. Or is he aggro and stupid enough to rereraise all in with a flush draw or a staight draw? Note the min raise on the flop usually means strength, especially from OOP. So, if I respect the guy, I lay it down when he pushes. If I think the guy is really an aggro loose tard, I call the push as I already have almost half my stack in the pot anyways and I have the biggest possible pair. Note your reraise on the flop is pretty aggro as well. If you are up against a decent opponent, there is nothing wrong with just calling his min raise and reassessing on the turn. I think this would be my preferred path against someone I respected.Hand 2 Fold. You have are OOP with a medium pair and have been rereraaised all in. Your tens are either no good or quite likely will be by the river. He has either got a bigger pair, a set or some kind of draw. I think you overplayed the tens when you reraised the flop out of position. I would just call the flop min raise and bet about $10 if no draw completes on the turn. Otherwise I am checking it. If he is still making big aggro bets, I am laying it down. Never go broke with just a pair.

[IBFT 0]

Never go broke with just a pair.

I'm not saying this with regards to the 3 hands posted, but just in general - is this proper cash game thinking? And I'm not talking about overvaluing hands - the fact that I don't just say 'lawlz overpair ahhh eeen' i think proves that Im atleast on more than one level of thinking - but in a cash game, if I feel I'm ahead, with one pair, or just high card, shouldnt the money be going in?

[Canute 0]

Am I the only one that thinks his betting sizes are a little low?

Why are they low? With the size of his stack, big bets are going to pot commit him very quickly. He wants to get value for his hand, but does not want to necessarily build a giant pot. So a 1/2 to full pot bet should be fine. He is in this range every time.The rereraises are in the 2.5 to 3x range, so I think the bet sizes are fine.Why would you feel otherwise?

[Canute 0]

I'm not saying this with regards to the 3 hands posted, but just in general - is this proper cash game thinking? And I'm not talking about overvaluing hands - the fact that I don't just say 'lawlz overpair ahhh eeen' i think proves that Im atleast on more than one level of thinking - but in a cash game, if I feel I'm ahead, with one pair, or just high card, shouldnt the money be going in?

If you have some kind of read on your opponent, then by all means, put the money in. Especially with the aces. But you really have to feel your opponent is a loose donk and would try to push you off your hand with a lower pair or some kind of draw. If you know nothing about your opponent or you know him to be a good player, then you really have to think about putting your whole stack in the middle with one pair.In the case of the tens, I think you really overplayed them and given the action I would be very reluctant to put it all in.... unless the opponent is a super donk. But in most cases you lay these down to the push.The aces are a little tougher call and you are more justified putting it all in, but still this hand got way too aggro on the flop for me to feel comfortable pushing in.... unless the opponent is a super donk.In general, you rereraised both times with these big pairs. Why not slow down a little and just call the min raise and see what the turn brings? And with the aces you have position. Why not use it? Too many players nowadays try to get their chips in quickly when they should play the whole hand... flop, turn and river.

[Canute 0]

I just assume that if I 3-bet that #3 is going to happen 100% of the time. Unfortunately it only happens about 2.3% of the time, so the other 97.7% fo the time Im suffering from a bad beat and Im dazed and confused. I didnt used to 3-bet on the flop like this before. Normally if I had an overpair and I started facing heat I'd go into check/call mode and try to show it down, but I've been told that thats being too much of a sissy. And my wife already thinks of me as a sissy, so I'd like to prevent the online poker community from thinking the same.

Calling the minraise is not being a sissy. Unless you know the opponent is weak, let the hand develop. Pot control is important when there is a good chance you are behind.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

Please stop 3 betting flops without knowing what you're gonna do if you get shoved on.

Yeah, that immediately stuck out. If you repop, know why you're doing it and have a plan. If you don't have a plan, how are you going to select betting/raising sizes? Potting it or just clicking randomly?I go broke on all 3.edit: and I'm only a bit unhappy about calling all in on hand 3, but then I'll hit a 10 and do a dance.

[IBFT 0]

Yeah, that immediately stuck out. If you repop, know why you're doing it and have a plan. If you don't have a plan, how are you going to select betting/raising sizes? Potting it or just clicking randomly?I go broke on all 3.edit: and I'm only a bit unhappy about calling all in on hand 3, but then I'll hit a 10 and do a dance.

I think that while there has been a lot of good posts (and I appreciate them all) so far, this one really gets to the crux of my issue with overpairs. My old method (as I stated earlier, make my standard bet, and then if I get action, basically try to to just check/call or do whatever I can to have a showdown, but make it relatively cheap) was designed because I felt that often I was either WA/WB (as I suppose is the case with overpairs) and I didn't want to chase him off, but I didn't necessarily want to build a 200bb pot with the losing hand. So, why did I start 3-betting? Well, I'm trying to be more aggressive in my game. Now, I understand that just 'blind aggression' is dumb, so I have to have a purpose. Well, in a lot of my hands where I'm raising in late position with a hand that isn't junk but isnt premium (for example, opening with KQ or QJ in HJ) I'll get called by the button. When I make my c-bet on the flop, a while ago, this bet would have won the pot a majority of the time. But with everyone and their brother out there c-betting, players have gotten, well, I don't want to say better, because their moves are pretty transparent, but they've gotten trickier. They'll start raising my c-bets in position, maybe with ATC (i dont really know, because I obviously don't want to go to showdown with KQ on a 6 high flop). Anyhow, the point I'm trying to get to, if I think button is just using his position to move me off a hand, I'll occassionally 3-bet his flop raise, if my read is that he's weak and just making a move (i obviously don't want to throw away money here). So if I'm doing this move occassionally with air, I have to do it with overpairs at times, too. Thats my logic, anyhow. I try to make my plays look as seemless as possible. Raise before the flops are always in the same manner. I try to keep my flop bets and my 3bets in the same size.One other problem I have with my old method is this: Keeping the pot small by check/calling only works if my opponent cooperates. The advent of the bet pot button has made it hard to keep pots small. If I raise PF and get a caller, we have a $5 pot. Now I bet $3.5 and he raises me to $10. I call, the pot is now $25. Assuming we both had $50 to start, well, now we're down to $37.5 Awkward stack sizes, because if he bets pot, or close to it on the turn, I now have to basically call any river, seeing as how I'll be getting like 6:1 on a call and I'll have (presumeably) an overpair still.Now in hand one, maybe just smooth calling would have been best. Maybe someone went retarded with AJ but the way he played it, I put him on a set, or what have you. Give me 4-6sooted any day, amirite?

[Citizen Erased 0]

And my wife already thinks of me as a sissy, so I'd like to prevent the online poker community from thinking the same.

Sorry to go off topic, butWell done.

[IBFT 0]

In general, you rereraised both times with these big pairs. Why not slow down a little and just call the min raise and see what the turn brings? And with the aces you have position. Why not use it? Too many players nowadays try to get their chips in quickly when they should play the whole hand... flop, turn and river.

You raise a good point with this paragraph here. I would say in general I prefer playing flop poker. But I think, and I'm sure this is something that every player has dealt with at some point or another, you start to get gunshy. You don't remember the successes you've had when you played a hand correctly, and not as quick, you just remember the ones where something went wrong, and you just start trying to force everything into the pot at once. I prefer to play my big hands quick, but I often lose sight of the fact that an overpair isnt really a big hand when you're facing a lot of action. Let me ask you a question, though. This is another overpair, OOP. I don't get played back at at all, but would you have slowed down at any point? Or do stack sizes dictate this?Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownUTG ($40.75)UTG+1 ($37.40)MP1 ($9.75)MP2 ($39.85)MP3 ($33.30)CO ($19.05)Button ($213)Hero ($136.10)BB ($33.50)Preflop: Hero is SB with A, A. 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $3.50, CO folds, Button folds.Flop: ($9.75) J, K, 8(2 players)Hero bets $7, MP2 calls $7.Turn: ($23.75) 9(2 players)Hero bets $19, MP2 calls $19.River: ($61.75) 8(2 players)Hero bets $10, MP2 calls $9.85 (All-In).Final Pot: $81.45My initial reaction is that the turn bet was too big, but maybe not by much.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

I'm not folding and I want to charge a draw with the Aces on the JK8 flop. I'm fine c/cing the river, but that's about it.I think betting the flop and then c/cing the turn + river with an overpair is ok, but usually just when you have a reason to believe you might not have the best hand. Sometimes you just have to lose your stack when you have an overpair, it happens and it's why you have a bankroll to play within.

[Canute 0]

I think that while there has been a lot of good posts (and I appreciate them all) so far, this one really gets to the crux of my issue with overpairs. My old method (as I stated earlier, make my standard bet, and then if I get action, basically try to to just check/call or do whatever I can to have a showdown, but make it relatively cheap) was designed because I felt that often I was either WA/WB (as I suppose is the case with overpairs) and I didn't want to chase him off, but I didn't necessarily want to build a 200bb pot with the losing hand. So, why did I start 3-betting? Well, I'm trying to be more aggressive in my game. Now, I understand that just 'blind aggression' is dumb, so I have to have a purpose. Well, in a lot of my hands where I'm raising in late position with a hand that isn't junk but isnt premium (for example, opening with KQ or QJ in HJ) I'll get called by the button. When I make my c-bet on the flop, a while ago, this bet would have won the pot a majority of the time. But with everyone and their brother out there c-betting, players have gotten, well, I don't want to say better, because their moves are pretty transparent, but they've gotten trickier. They'll start raising my c-bets in position, maybe with ATC (i dont really know, because I obviously don't want to go to showdown with KQ on a 6 high flop). Anyhow, the point I'm trying to get to, if I think button is just using his position to move me off a hand, I'll occassionally 3-bet his flop raise, if my read is that he's weak and just making a move (i obviously don't want to throw away money here). Ok, I think you are making some good points here, but I still think way too much 3 betting is going on. I mean aggression wins yes, but too much aggression can get you in trouble and sometimes passive play can make you more money.For instance, 3 bet the aces or push, but slow down on the tens in hand 2. So if I'm doing this move occassionally with air, I have to do it with overpairs at times, too. Thats my logic, anyhow. I try to make my plays look as seemless as possible. Raise before the flops are always in the same manner. I try to keep my flop bets and my 3bets in the same size.Good idea.One other problem I have with my old method is this: Keeping the pot small by check/calling only works if my opponent cooperates. The advent of the bet pot button has made it hard to keep pots small. If I raise PF and get a caller, we have a $5 pot. Now I bet $3.5 and he raises me to $10. I call, the pot is now $25. Assuming we both had $50 to start, well, now we're down to $37.5 Awkward stack sizes, because if he bets pot, or close to it on the turn, I now have to basically call any river, seeing as how I'll be getting like 6:1 on a call and I'll have (presumeably) an overpair still.If your opponent's min raise is a bluff or a draw, then he is very likely to cooperate and slow down on the turn and river. If it is not a bluff or a draw, he won't slow down. Use the information accordingly. I mean aside from the fact that you give a free card, what is the difference between calling a $3.50 min raise and then either calling or making a $10 turn bet (for a total of $13.50) as opposed to rereraising $14 more? The less aggressive difference is you get about the same if not more info about where your opponent is at and you make it to the river. And sometimes you make more money because your opponent does not put you on aces. I am not saying 3 betting an overpair is bad, but it is if it gets done all the time. Especially a weak overpair like TT out of position. If I am your opponent and I know you will become married to an overpair, I am going to make you pay when I have something better.And how to keep the pot from getting so big? Bet 1/2 instead of 3/4 pot. Reraise 2.5x instead of 3x. And if your opponent is reraising you out of position after you have shown strength preflop and on the flop, you have seriously got to ask yourself if you are still ahead. It depends a lot on the type of opponent.One more point. There is a lot of emphasis here on winning the hand with just one pair. Big pairs are usually good for winning a small pot or losing a big one. Overall you are going to make more money when your big draws hit. If you become a little more laid back with your big pairs, people will realize this and they will not be quite sure whether you have a big pair or a draw. This could be to your advantage.Now in hand one, maybe just smooth calling would have been best. Maybe someone went retarded with AJ but the way he played it, I put him on a set, or what have you. If you have him on a set, why 3 bet?Give me 4-6sooted any day, amirite?

[IBFT 0]

"If you have him on a set, why 3 bet"Sorry, I think my wording was poor. On the Jxx flop, if he has AJ, but went retarded with it with the check-raise then the push to my 3-bet, I wouldn't be able to put him on AJ, I'd have to put him on something that beats me (set), so I'm losing value by 3-betting and giving him the chance to represent something bigger than he has. I was agreeing with you that my aggression was too much and could have cost me money from a weaker hand if someone decided to go bonkers with it.