Folding A Nuts Set Against A Draw?

[DelftDragons 0]

Happend yesterday,Second hand in a $160 buy-in 500 pl tournie, 10 handed.Stacks are still 2500 around (only second hand of the tournie), blinds are 20-10.I get 7/7 on the buttonUG+2 bets 100MP2 raises to 200Button callsUG+2 callsFLop2c,6s,7sUG+2 Bets 200MP2 raises to 500Button raises to 1000UG+2 all-inMP2 all-inGreat, now what.I have the nuts with a set of 7's.The others are either drawing a straight or flush (or both) or if I am very lucky one is holding AA, KK, QQ. --Results to be posted later ;-)Thinking back I could have just called the post flop-bet to hope for a safecard to hit. Problem is that any non-safe card would make it very hard to play on, since either player could have hit his draw. I could have pushed all-in instead of raising to 1000, but I was hoping to get one caller for an all-in so I could worry about only one player hitting a straight or a flush. Did I mess up or is that just the way it works out sometimes?

[simo_8ball 1]

Are you ****ing serious?If you aren't happy calling with the stone cold nuts, what on earth WOULD you be happy calling with?If the slightest possibility of considering anything but an instashoving while laughing gleefully crosses your mind here there's something wrong.Download Pokerstove (from pokerstove.com). Assign ranges to the players, and check your equity here. You'll see that you are a MASSIVE favourite.

[DelftDragons 0]

Well I was actually not unhappy, but I didn't have it stone cold. UG+2 showed a set of 2's so he was crushed. MP4 showed a monsterdraw with 8s,9s and I lost to the flush which hit on the river.Possibly the outcome changed my judgement of the hand. I just wonder if it would have been better to see the river with a safe card and then shove, vs doing it post-flop.

[Otter 0]

Well I was actually not unhappy, but I didn't have it stone cold. UG+2 showed a set of 2's so he was crushed. MP4 showed a monsterdraw with 8s,9s and I lost to the flush which hit on the river.Possibly the outcome changed my judgement of the hand. I just wonder if it would have been better to see the river with a safe card and then shove, vs doing it post-flop.

You're judging based on results. You put your money in as a favorite. PokerStove shows your equity is 49.96 vs 45.71. You basically took a coin-flip and lost. With the way the hand went down. It didn't matter if you pushed or not, all the money was going into the middle before the turn. This is an instashove everytime. Also being as its early in the tourney, I'm playing for a big stack early. Folding here is -ev.

[copernicus 0]

In a cash game you might consider keeping the pot small and looking for a safe board, but in a tourney get your money in.

[OhKeePa 0]

In a cash game you might consider keeping the pot small and looking for a safe board, but in a tourney get your money in.

isnt the general rule of thumb the opposite of that?In a cash game if someone hits there draw I can rebuy and get back in against a weak player who risked all his chips on a draw... In a tournament if he hits his draw I'm out and have no chance to play anymore

[copernicus 0]

isnt the general rule of thumb the opposite of that?In a cash game if someone hits there draw I can rebuy and get back in against a weak player who risked all his chips on a draw... In a tournament if he hits his draw I'm out and have no chance to play anymore

But in a tournament you generally play your +EV situations faster (especially when you have the made hand) because youre up against rising blinds, and there is additional value to tripling up early because of them (contary to the "each additional chip loses value" theory). Note I said "might consider" folding in a cash game...I doubt that I would unless I was playing too high or on my last buy in, but in a tourney I dont think its ever right to fold when you have the stone cold nuts and are the equity favorite to the river (except for bubble/prize considerations).

[OhKeePa 0]

i agree w/ what you are saying, as the move was to go all in...but, in general, when coming down to going all in in a cash game vs. a tournament, cash game you would be first to go all in everytime

[Sheiky 0]

Well I was actually not unhappy, but I didn't have it stone cold. UG+2 showed a set of 2's so he was crushed. MP4 showed a monsterdraw with 8s,9s and I lost to the flush which hit on the river.Possibly the outcome changed my judgement of the hand. I just wonder if it would have been better to see the river with a safe card and then shove, vs doing it post-flop.

In a cash game you might consider keeping the pot small and looking for a safe board, but in a tourney get your money in.

Um, when you have the stone cold nuts, it's the time to get the pot as big as possible, because like, we have the nuts, you know? No one can have a better hand, so it's +EV to get as much money as possible in with the nuts, even considering to look for a safe board when you have the nuts it's ridiculous.I thought this hand was going to be an omaha hand given the title.

[throwemaway 0]

I just really hope that it was the OP who voted fold, because if there is one more person on this forum who did, I'm pretty disappointed

[DelftDragons 0]

I voted call, which I did. Glad to here I didn;t play it wrong (as being the general consensus).

[kkot 0]

Fold here face up to balance your folding range.

[four10 lkc 0]

Fold here face up to balance your folding range.

haha, well played... but we need more pictures of the girl in your avatar

[TrueAce13 18]

Easy fold seeing two people moved in on youSincerely, Jennifer TillyIf you are seriously considering folding this, your insane. I mean, yeah, you might be up against draws, but you just have to hope others had some of their outs. Then just pray for the board to pair. Sorry that you lost the hand, but folding the nuts is just a move I haven't learned yet

[dereeekho 0]

hi smash_______________i'd consider smooth call if it's a bet and a fold. but since it's a bet and a raise, we gotta ship it in to isolate at the very least.

[HangukMiguk 8]

I'm voting this gets moved to the bad beat forum, as this thread is indicating as much.

[HangukMiguk 8]

Another thought popped into mind:Why you not to accept allin withouth to see floop?

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

i vote call... but just out of curiousity... concerning thishttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=119871e.g AKs against ATC for your whole stack is +EV while AKo against ATC for your whole stack is slightly -EV early in a tourney...can this be straight up be applied at all to the above situation? or do we need the extra info to know? I don't really know how to work out EV in that situation, but I'm assuming it's going to be snap call no matter what because you are getting such a good price right? (e.g... more than tripling up... so the risk you are taking to increase your equity is worth it?)

[TrueAce13 18]

Um, when you have the stone cold nuts, it's the time to get the pot as big as possible, because like, we have the nuts, you know? No one can have a better hand, so it's +EV to get as much money as possible in with the nuts, even considering to look for a safe board when you have the nuts it's ridiculous.I thought this hand was going to be an omaha hand given the title.

Very well put

[Sheiky 0]

i vote call... but just out of curiousity... concerning thishttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=119871e.g AKs against ATC for your whole stack is +EV while AKo against ATC for your whole stack is slightly -EV early in a tourney...can this be straight up be applied at all to the above situation? or do we need the extra info to know? I don't really know how to work out EV in that situation, but I'm assuming it's going to be snap call no matter what because you are getting such a good price right? (e.g... more than tripling up... so the risk you are taking to increase your equity is worth it?)

Any further discussion trying to justify folding the nuts in this thread is retarded, as is this example. yours sincerely, Sheiky.

[copernicus 0]

Um, when you have the stone cold nuts, it's the time to get the pot as big as possible, because like, we have the nuts, you know? No one can have a better hand, so it's +EV to get as much money as possible in with the nuts, even considering to look for a safe board when you have the nuts it's ridiculous.

Not an absolute. The current nuts can still have reverse implied odds, though I dont think top set can.

[mk 11]

how on earth did this thread get 20 responses?

[Sheiky 0]

Not an absolute. The currs(not that i agree with that) would be even more of a reason to get as much money in the pot as possible while you have the nutsent nuts can still have reverse implied odds, though I dont think top set can.

Having reverse implied odds would be even more of a reason to get as much money in the pot as the favourite surely.

[copernicus 0]

Having reverse implied odds would be even more of a reason to get as much money in the pot as the favourite surely.

No, not when you cant shut out your opponent with 2 cards to come (eg a 12 or 13 out draw) but you can with 1 card to come and you no longer have RIO.

[TravisG 0]

i vote call... but just out of curiousity... concerning thishttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=119871e.g AKs against ATC for your whole stack is +EV while AKo against ATC for your whole stack is slightly -EV early in a tourney...can this be straight up be applied at all to the above situation? or do we need the extra info to know? I don't really know how to work out EV in that situation, but I'm assuming it's going to be snap call no matter what because you are getting such a good price right? (e.g... more than tripling up... so the risk you are taking to increase your equity is worth it?)

that example was for bubble-play in stt sitngoes. ako is only -(realmoney)ev against the sb (because hes the only one with more chips than you, which means bout half the time you will bust out of the SNG without any money. the move itself is still +chipEV)