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#41 pokerjoker114

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:02 AM

View PostZach6668, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 2:20 PM, said:

I do, and let me tell you, I was not ready to be a pro, when I quit my job. I was lucky though, because I had very few responsibilities, very low living expenses, no family, and I was lucky enough to have friends who were willing to lend me money at times of need.I would never ever want to go through that again, though. The stress of small downswings was immense, because you feel like you need to win to pay that bill, etc. It's not fun.I mean, I think I would have given it more thought if I had a real job, where I made real money, but I was only quitting a min wage job, so our situations are a little different.If I had a job that paid me well, and a family to support, there's no way I'd be a pro poker player, before I knew a few more things about myself.I'd need to know, deep down, in my heart, that I'm a very winning player. 6 months of playing live games is probably not enough of a sample size to determine that. I'd also want to make sure I have a substatial savings, in case I have losing or breakeven months. I'd also want to make sure my poker bankroll is much much larger than the numbers people claim for whatever game I'm playing.I've been a pro for about 14 months, and just in the last couple months am I finally able to say that I've got a bit of savings, and I'm overrolled for my game of choice. Not having either of these conditions fulfilled before I quit my job only hurt my development, and set it back quite a bit. If I didn't have such a short roll, I think I'd be where I am now, at least 6 months ago, if not more.Poker is not an easy living. It's swingy, and it takes a special type of person to deal with this, and it is very important that your loved ones understand this. You seem to have the loved ones part down, but how are they going to react when you have a 3 month losing swing? It happens to the best players on earth. From time to time, we all run worse than we can ever imagine.How long have you been playing, and charting your records? How many hours have you played?I know you stated in a post already that you don't play online, but I want to urge you to seriously consider that option. Live poker is mind numbingly boring a huge portion of the time. Playing poker 40 hours a week will fry your brain very quickly. Have you ever consistently put in long sessions, 6 days a week, for months at a time? You'll need to know how you can handle that. Online play offers much more flexibility. You can play way more hands per hour at the game you're used to, grinding ot that 6 hour live session in an hour online, or you can lower your stakes a bit, spend the same amount of time, and make much more money. You need to consider these options. And I don't buy your argument in your first reply to this. All that tells me is that you don't actually understand poker, but rather, you understand how to beat an average 2/5 live game. That's all well and good, but you'll be left behind if you don't get a deeper understanding of a game that is so dynamic, and always changing, like poker. Live poker and online poker aren't different. You gather information and apply it to your decisions, while considering the mathematical dynamic (whether consiously or not). I understand that some players have strengths that include reading people face to face, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn to beat an online poker game. You're mostly just using it as a crutch, which will hold you back.Please take my advice to heart, it is completely serious and sincere.Good luck.- Zach
Zach: Thank you very much. This is more of the response I was looking for. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain some of these things as well. I will defiantly give some thought to all the suggestions you made. To give you a little feedback on some of the questions you ask here are some answers:How long have you played: I have played poker (as a hobby) for about 15 years. The last 3 have been serious though.How long have you charted your records: The last 3 yearsHow many hours have you played: On average about 700 hours per year or 60 hours a month or 15 hours a weekAverage I agree with not knowing allot about games over 5/10 but again that is what my questions are for. I do want to move up so help pad some of these things. I do see where you are coming from too on the internet play. I have been entertaining the idea more but still not my first choice. It I did do that it would only be in a part time capacity or only to change things up a bit.Again, thanks for the response I will defiantly look more into the items you bring up.

#42 pokerjoker114

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:09 AM

View PostNonZeroPossibility, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 2:22 PM, said:

Oh yeah, if it's docuemented, than why do you say 80-90%.... Shouldn't it be an exact figure like 83.7% or 91.4%?but anyways... You should quit your steady job and play poker every day. good luck.
Because I am taking into consideration of what I did before I started documenting items. Out of the listed 270 line items in my excel sheet (each session being a line item) I only have 56 line items that do not show a profit. If you really want to get exact it is about 80.xxx% of the time I win. I said 80-90% because there where very few times before the documenting that I could remember loosing. I do know that I won way more than I lost in the prior years though.

#43 Zach6668

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:11 AM

View Postpokerjoker114, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 3:02 PM, said:

Zach: Thank you very much. This is more of the response I was looking for. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain some of these things as well. I will defiantly give some thought to all the suggestions you made. To give you a little feedback on some of the questions you ask here are some answers:How long have you played: I have played poker (as a hobby) for about 15 years. The last 3 have been serious though.How long have you charted your records: The last 3 yearsHow many hours have you played: On average about 700 hours per year or 60 hours a month or 15 hours a weekAverage I agree with not knowing allot about games over 5/10 but again that is what my questions are for. I do want to move up so help pad some of these things. I do see where you are coming from too on the internet play. I have been entertaining the idea more but still not my first choice. It I did do that it would only be in a part time capacity or only to change things up a bit.Again, thanks for the response I will defiantly look more into the items you bring up.
So, 15 years is a good chunk of experience. It's good to know that you're not just one of those kids who ran well for a few months, and decided to drop out of school, etc. And 3 years of serious play is quite a bit, although it's not exactly a huge chunk, since it's live play.To put it in perspective, we'll say 30 hands per hour, for 700 hours, you're looking at 21,000 hands per year since you've started the record keeping. That's a decent sample, but it is entirely possible for someone to be running hot over that stretch, and it's also entirely possible to run poorly for that number of hands. Could you handle having a losing year? If you don't believe me, go through the New Challenge (old challenge) thread and look at some of the graphs the NL players post. These guys play upwards of 50k hands per month, and still sometimes have losing months, breakeven months, etc. It's just something you'll need to be ready for psycologically. 63,000 hands total, if you're winning at a decent clip over that stretch, there's a high probability you are in fact a winning player, so that's certainly good for you to know. Doesn't mean you can't have the monster swings.With respect to the internet play, yeah, it goes the same way. Often, I get sick of the grind of playing online all day, the same I would if I played live for a living. For that reason, I make trips to Vegas, I play a bit at the card room here, etc. I was merely suggesting it, so that you'd leave it open as an option, because playing cards every day for a long stretch will become tedious. It's very nice to switch it up a little, so it's nice to have something like this, where you can stay home with the wife, get in a few hours of work, and relax the rest of the time, etc.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#44 Zach6668

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:14 AM

View Postpokerjoker114, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 3:09 PM, said:

Because I am taking into consideration of what I did before I started documenting items. Out of the listed 270 line items in my excel sheet (each session being a line item) I only have 56 line items that do not show a profit. If you really want to get exact it is about 80.xxx% of the time I win. I said 80-90% because there where very few times before the documenting that I could remember loosing. I do know that I won way more than I lost in the prior years though.
Fwiw, winning percentage in sessions is meaningless.Focusing on this is a bit of a leak.A few reasons for this; you could be pressuring yourself to get even on days when you're losing, and thus playing poorly, resulting in bigger losses than you should have had; you could be quitting too early, when you get up a few hundred, or whatever it may be, in order to book a winning session, and that limits the time you spend playing your A game. It's a pretty common thing, for players to play more poker when they're losing, and to play less when you're winning, but that really limits your potential income. You'll tend to play worse poker when you're trying to get even, and you'll generally tend to play a lot sharper if you've been winning. So cutting the winning sessions short, and extending the losing sessions is a bad idea, although it's obviously not clear that you're doing this, I just don't want everyone to get hung up on these session win rates.It's certainly possible to have a winning percentage of 80%, and be down money, over a decent sample, although unlikely. This stat just doesn't tell the whole story.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#45 pokerjoker114

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:23 AM

View PostZach6668, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 3:11 PM, said:

So, 15 years is a good chunk of experience. It's good to know that you're not just one of those kids who ran well for a few months, and decided to drop out of school, etc. And 3 years of serious play is quite a bit, although it's not exactly a huge chunk, since it's live play.To put it in perspective, we'll say 30 hands per hour, for 700 hours, you're looking at 21,000 hands per year since you've started the record keeping. That's a decent sample, but it is entirely possible for someone to be running hot over that stretch, and it's also entirely possible to run poorly for that number of hands. Could you handle having a losing year? If you don't believe me, go through the New Challenge (old challenge) thread and look at some of the graphs the NL players post. These guys play upwards of 50k hands per month, and still sometimes have losing months, breakeven months, etc. It's just something you'll need to be ready for psycologically. 63,000 hands total, if you're winning at a decent clip over that stretch, there's a high probability you are in fact a winning player, so that's certainly good for you to know. Doesn't mean you can't have the monster swings.With respect to the internet play, yeah, it goes the same way. Often, I get sick of the grind of playing online all day, the same I would if I played live for a living. For that reason, I make trips to Vegas, I play a bit at the card room here, etc. I was merely suggesting it, so that you'd leave it open as an option, because playing cards every day for a long stretch will become tedious. It's very nice to switch it up a little, so it's nice to have something like this, where you can stay home with the wife, get in a few hours of work, and relax the rest of the time, etc.
I will check out that thread as well. You defiantly bring valid points up on all aspects. I would like to "think" I can handle a loosing year but I would rather be sure that I can handle it. One of the big reasons I am considering this as well is that my current profession there are a number of opportunities for me to get back into the field and pretty quick as well if I donít succeed at poker. I have the confidence that I will be that wont stop the donkeys from sucking out on my and just running a cold deck for months at a time either.I truly feel that I am ready but at the same time it is scary only because I have spoken with a number of people who tell me the worst of it and only some with good stories. I do understand that just like poker all of there situations are circumstantial but looking at some of the big ones I feel that this is the right step. Not saying I am going to quit tomorrow but I have also played with the idea of taking a lesser part time job allowing more time for the casinos as well. This would help me to ease into the new career as well. Anyway, thanks again for the input it is much appreciated! Everyone who asks questions like this is almost always looking for the "yeah do it, I did it and it worked out great" answer but I do understand that it is not the case. Those are the lucky few inside the 10% of people who actually can sustain a living. Anyhow, thanks again for the input.

#46 daniel mahan

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:26 AM

View PostZach6668, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 10:20 AM, said:

I do, and let me tell you, I was not ready to be a pro, when I quit my job. I was lucky though, because I had very few responsibilities, very low living expenses, no family, and I was lucky enough to have friends who were willing to lend me money at times of need.I would never ever want to go through that again, though. The stress of small downswings was immense, because you feel like you need to win to pay that bill, etc. It's not fun.I mean, I think I would have given it more thought if I had a real job, where I made real money, but I was only quitting a min wage job, so our situations are a little different.If I had a job that paid me well, and a family to support, there's no way I'd be a pro poker player, before I knew a few more things about myself.I'd need to know, deep down, in my heart, that I'm a very winning player. 6 months of playing live games is probably not enough of a sample size to determine that. I'd also want to make sure I have a substatial savings, in case I have losing or breakeven months. I'd also want to make sure my poker bankroll is much much larger than the numbers people claim for whatever game I'm playing.I've been a pro for about 14 months, and just in the last couple months am I finally able to say that I've got a bit of savings, and I'm overrolled for my game of choice. Not having either of these conditions fulfilled before I quit my job only hurt my development, and set it back quite a bit. If I didn't have such a short roll, I think I'd be where I am now, at least 6 months ago, if not more.Poker is not an easy living. It's swingy, and it takes a special type of person to deal with this, and it is very important that your loved ones understand this. You seem to have the loved ones part down, but how are they going to react when you have a 3 month losing swing? It happens to the best players on earth. From time to time, we all run worse than we can ever imagine.How long have you been playing, and charting your records? How many hours have you played?I know you stated in a post already that you don't play online, but I want to urge you to seriously consider that option. Live poker is mind numbingly boring a huge portion of the time. Playing poker 40 hours a week will fry your brain very quickly. Have you ever consistently put in long sessions, 6 days a week, for months at a time? You'll need to know how you can handle that. Online play offers much more flexibility. You can play way more hands per hour at the game you're used to, grinding ot that 6 hour live session in an hour online, or you can lower your stakes a bit, spend the same amount of time, and make much more money. You need to consider these options. And I don't buy your argument in your first reply to this. All that tells me is that you don't actually understand poker, but rather, you understand how to beat an average 2/5 live game. That's all well and good, but you'll be left behind if you don't get a deeper understanding of a game that is so dynamic, and always changing, like poker. Live poker and online poker aren't different. You gather information and apply it to your decisions, while considering the mathematical dynamic (whether consiously or not). I understand that some players have strengths that include reading people face to face, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn to beat an online poker game. You're mostly just using it as a crutch, which will hold you back.Please take my advice to heart, it is completely serious and sincere.Good luck.- Zach
this was seriously one of the best post i have ever read on the topic. There seem to be so many ppl who "know" about the subject, but this hit on so many different levels I really enjoyed this post and makes a lot of sense for what is being discussed. Well said Zach
Daniel

#47 Vtlaxer09

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:28 AM

View Postpokerjoker114, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 3:23 PM, said:

I will check out that thread as well. You defiantly bring valid points up on all aspects. I would like to "think" I can handle a loosing year but I would rather be sure that I can handle it. One of the big reasons I am considering this as well is that my current profession there are a number of opportunities for me to get back into the field and pretty quick as well if I donít succeed at poker. I have the confidence that I will be that wont stop the donkeys from sucking out on my and just running a cold deck for months at a time either.I truly feel that I am ready but at the same time it is scary only because I have spoken with a number of people who tell me the worst of it and only some with good stories. I do understand that just like poker all of there situations are circumstantial but looking at some of the big ones I feel that this is the right step. Not saying I am going to quit tomorrow but I have also played with the idea of taking a lesser part time job allowing more time for the casinos as well. This would help me to ease into the new career as well. Anyway, thanks again for the input it is much appreciated! Everyone who asks questions like this is almost always looking for the "yeah do it, I did it and it worked out great" answer but I do understand that it is not the case. Those are the lucky few inside the 10% of people who actually can sustain a living. Anyhow, thanks again for the input.
its losing..... please use that word correctly... you are not loosing money. Thats just silly... and one of my biggest pet peeves. L-O-S-I-N-G. tygl/tp/mm/etc.

#48 cubsfan44

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:29 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 12:02 PM, said:

So do I. Just throwing it out there.
Live play is the better part of your game.....eeeek

View Posttheinvestor, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

I pwned in softball last year. I went 3/4 in the last game. I just quit my job, packed my things, and I am on my way to FL for spring training with the Tigers! I am staying in Orlando though, as I want to be at least an hour away from the complex.
Swing and a miss
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#49 Suited_Up

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:32 AM

View Postcubsfan44, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 2:29 PM, said:

Live play is the better part of your game.....eeeekSwing and a miss
LOLLets just say I'm not always wasted, and not always playing a game with 100% to the flop after 3 raises. :club:
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#50 Acid_Knight

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:15 PM

Zach is right about pretty much everything.Especially the part about "if you have to ask these questions, you're not ready to do this for a living."The fact that you live an hour from the nearest casino should almost force you to want to play online. If you play 5 days a week, then that's automatically 10 hours more PER WEEK that you can spend doing other crap because you didn't have to drive back and forth to the casino.FWIW, I've played poker for about 6+ years and have been pretty serious about it for 4 years. I have a degree and a job and the thought of going pro is highly unappealing to me. The game is fun when you win and it sucks when you lose. Just imagine how much it'll suck when you're losing and you start thinking "man, if I make this bluff and he calls, I'm gonna have a hard time paying the mortgage this month..." and then decide how much that's gonna f-ck up your game.Everyone always underestimates the amount of $$ they'll need saved, separate from a bankroll to play poker for a living. They have this ego that they're good enough to go pro and therefore aren't supposed to lose and therefore they can just pay the rent from their roll. Everyone will run worse than they ever thought possible at some point in their poker career. You need to KNOW that you can handle that kind of pressure or make other financial considerations beforehand, if you're not sure you can.

#51 Zach6668

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:17 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM, said:

Zach is right about pretty much everything.
New sig.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#52 Acid_Knight

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:18 PM

View PostZach6668, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 1:17 PM, said:

New sig.
Too late to FMP to something that won't make your head so big? :club:

#53 SilentButDeadly3

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:16 PM

View PostROBBBIGG, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

yup, just go do it. poker is fun for everyone
except my opponents

#54 drcossack

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:17 PM

View PostSilentButDeadly3, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 7:16 PM, said:

except my opponents
they should've practiced avoidance
QUOTE(Temporary Nuts @ Friday, April 25th, 2008, 3:30 PM) View Post
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I'veeeee goooot Hooooeesss
In different areaaaaaa cooooodes... areaaaa cooooooodeeess

Hooooeeesss


#55 TheMan2Go

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:49 PM

I'm not a pro by any means but would it be viable to take a 6 month leave of absence or extended vacation without pay just incase it doesn`t work out for you.
Playing poker is not gambling, driving on the freeway to work is.

#56 Royal_Tour

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 04:11 PM

zach is very spot on with his post.also, no matter how much you want to believe it. playing poker for a living is not a dream. Infact, I dont think anyone ever thinks. " i want to be a professional poker player when i grow up"because it sucks. imagine if you played a sport for a living, but before everygame, you have to put up $2000.00 of your own money. lame potatoes.and thats poker.. lame potatoes. It beats a lot of jobs, and if you're good, it can make dreams come true. But it is in no way, a Dream in itself.it fuucking blows goat asss. and I actually run good. and it still blows.



#57 Balloon guy

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 04:38 PM

How many doctors are rich? Most of themHow many lawyers are rich? Many of themHow many Entrepreneurs are rich? A lot of us.How many poker players are rich? Very very very few.
I use my cigar smoke as idiot repellent

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#58 AndyZ28

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:11 PM

This has been a helluva good thread to read. Take Zach's and Acid Knight's posts very seriously. From the first post I ever saw from either of them, I knew it would be good to soak in every word they typed. This thread is no different.As far as going pro, I am not one. I'm a LONG ways from even thinking about it. I only get in about 4-5 hours of live play($1/2) every week. And in the past 3-4 months I've cleared $2,100 from it.If I were to go pro, I would want a year of money saved up for living expenses. Someone said 6 months, but I'd rather have a year. I would also want to live very close to a casino, within 20 minutes of it. Minimize driving time, or even walk there. Definitely extend your play to online as well. If you can do well at both, then you should do ok. I do better at live play than I do online. But, I've only been playing a year(a serious year at that).GL to you in the future if you do make this step.

#59 Dratj

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:17 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:11 PM, said:

zach is very spot on with his post.also, no matter how much you want to believe it. playing poker for a living is not a dream. Infact, I dont think anyone ever thinks. " i want to be a professional poker player when i grow up"because it sucks. imagine if you played a sport for a living, but before everygame, you have to put up $2000.00 of your own money. lame potatoes.and thats poker.. lame potatoes. It beats a lot of jobs, and if you're good, it can make dreams come true. But it is in no way, a Dream in itself.it fuucking blows goat asss. and I actually run good. and it still blows.
Really? Why is it lame? Is it actually just a grind after a while? Do you have days and weeks where you wake up and don't want to play at all?

#60 Dratj

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:20 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:38 PM, said:

How many doctors are rich? Most of themHow many lawyers are rich? Many of themHow many Entrepreneurs are rich? A lot of us.How many poker players are rich? Very very very few.
lol. I know some of each except for the pro poker player. Nobody I know is rich from what they are doing. Comfortable maybe but def. not Balloon Guy rich.




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