8 replies to this topic

[akishore]

8-handed $1/2 hold 'em(very tight/agg at gamesgrid)Pre-flop: akishore is MP2 with K Q UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, akishore raises, BB folds, UTG calls, akishore calls.is K-Q offsuit actually a limping hand in tight/agg games? i think i need to read HEFAP or maybe MLHE or similar. i've heard that in advanced or tight/agg games, K-Q offsuit is actually a fold UTG, and i'm used to raising it in low limit games. anyway, the SB three-bet, so i just called of course.Flop: K Q 4 (3 players, 10 SB)SB checks, UTG+1 bets.ok, it looks like i played this passively, but hear me out. the SB, who three-bet pre-flop, checked on the flop--what?? this screamed K-K or Q-Q or maybe A-K. so when UTG bet, i felt out of position relative to the three-bettor, so i opted to call sensing a check-raise from the SB, and indeed, that's what happened.when he check-raised and UTG called, i wasn't sure if i wanted to three-bet or call here. i decided to call because basically the only three-bettable and check-raisable hand i could beat here was A-K, and some players don't even three-bet A-K. i also intended to raise the turn for value if a blank fell (my hand is disguised right now).knowing my thoughts, was the flop play okay?Turn: 6 (3 players, 8 BB)SB bets, SB calls, UTG folds.so a blank fell, and i raised for value with top two. when the SB only called, i eliminated K-K and Q-Q from his possible holdings.River: A (2 players, 13 BB)SB checks, [b][u]akishore checks.yikes, i HATED that river. i just figured that ace HAD to have helped him--he three-bet pre-flop and check-raised on the flop and slowed down on the turn. the ONE hand i could put him on was A-K, and he improved. i didn't want to bet and get check-raised. was this too passive?aseem

[Vade]

Raise preflop. I think even KQo is an always raise hand if no one has raised in front of you. Fold it to a raise, but call the three bet obviouslyRaise the FLOP. Look, even tight players will 3 bet preflop with JJ or AA or AK suited. You're ahead here a lot of the time.Yup, love the turn raise. I still think you're ahead.You're right, the river isn't great for your hand. AA is now ahead, AK is now ahead etcIf you've bet the whole way, I think you have to bet the river.

[dbdbarry]

preflop: I wouldn't raise with KQ in that position. I like raising Co or button with KQ.Flop: Gotta bet it. You've got 2 pair, very unlikely you're beat, bet while you have the best hand.Turn: Good play here, you bet, nothing to add.River: Well... I think I would check here. There's a possibility he would check 2 pair or trips here due to the flush coming up. I was putting him on AA this entire time. HOwever, due to the fact that you're posting this hand I'm guessing he didn't have AA and that you won the hand and you wish you had bet the river. But I still think it's good to check here. All the hands that you 3 bet preflop here would beat you.

[akishore]

Vade said:

Raise preflop. I think even KQo is an always raise hand if no one has raised in front of you. Fold it to a raise, but call the three bet obviously

i respectfully disagree strongly. eddie miller says to limp with it in early position in low limit games, sklansky and malmuth have said to fold it UTG in mid/high limit games (tight/aggressive games), and a lot of respected RGP posters also advocate folding it in early position in tough games. with someone who's already limped in before me, i think a case can be made for limping as well.K-Q offsuit is a raising hand in LOW limit games because limpers generally have WEAK hands, and you're pushing an equity edge. in tight/aggressive games, you're not beating a whole lot of limping hands--any ace is ahead, any pocket pair is ahead, and you don't dominate many tight/aggressive hands besides K-J and maybe K-10/Q-J.

Vade said:

Raise the FLOP. Look, even tight players will 3 bet preflop with JJ or AA or AK suited. You're ahead here a lot of the time.

i think you meant flop, not turn.i wasn't saying that i'm not ahead a lot of times here. the reason i didn't raise the first time was because i wanted to see what SB would do--if he folds, i can assume i have the best hand, but why raise if it could get check-three-bet behind me?the reason i didn't raise the second time was both for value and for equity. if a blank fell on the turn, my equity would shoot way up and i would also get the most value against A-K, A-A, etc. (since he might slowdown if i three-bet here after just calling... this is similar to the bet/call-check/raise line instead of the bet/threebet-bet line). three-betting here also would accomplish nothing in terms of protecting my hand (since the original bettor would call hands down).again, i'm not arguing that i'm not ahead--i have other reasons for calling in both these spots. are those reasons wrong?

Vade said:

You're right, the river isn't great for your hand. AA is now ahead, AK is now ahead etcIf you've bet the whole way, I think you have to bet the river.

i don't get it. if the river is a bad card, and a lot of three-bettable hands that i was ahead of now are ahead of me, why do i have to bet the river? what worse hand that three-bet and came all the way to the river will call me here?aseem

[Vade]

Yikes, I guess I'm wrong then :PAh well, next hand

[akishore]

dbdbarry said:

Flop: Gotta bet it. You've got 2 pair, very unlikely you're beat, bet while you have the best hand.

i'm guessing you meant "gotta raise here".if it's unlikely that i'm beat, why not get full value and raise the turn?similar example, heads-up:you bet on the flop, i raise with the better hand, you three-bet. if i cap, you might slow down and check-call the turn and river. if i call, you will bet out and i can raise on the turn.if i only call the three-bet and wait for the turn (the more expensive street) to raise, i get more value.in this case, similarly, i can wait for the turn to raise to get full value from hands that i'm beating.so again, if it's unlikely that i'm beat, why three-bet here? why not wait for the turn to raise, since i KNOW the SB will bet out?aseem

[wrto4556]

Seriously, raise preflop.Mallmuth, Sklansky, and Miller all say to raise KQ form MP in any game. Where the confrontation comes is raising KQo from UTG which is a raise if you have good post flop skills, or if people will call with much worse holdings.I'd play this pretty straight forward. Cap the flop.Im still not sure about the river. :?

[akishore]

wrto, why cap the flop as opposed to calling it with the intention of raising the turn?aseem

[KDawgCometh]

akishore said:

8-handed $1/2 hold 'em(very tight/agg at gamesgrid)Pre-flop: akishore is MP2 with K Q UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, akishore raises, BB folds, UTG calls, akishore calls.is K-Q offsuit actually a limping hand in tight/agg games? i think i need to read HEFAP or maybe MLHE or similar. i've heard that in advanced or tight/agg games, K-Q offsuit is actually a fold UTG, and i'm used to raising it in low limit games. anyway, the SB three-bet, so i just called of course.nope, I'm raising it. obvious call on the threebetFlop: K Q 4 (3 players, 10 SB)SB checks, UTG+1 bets.ok, it looks like i played this passively, but hear me out. the SB, who three-bet pre-flop, checked on the flop--what?? this screamed K-K or Q-Q or maybe A-K. so when UTG bet, i felt out of position relative to the three-bettor, so i opted to call sensing a check-raise from the SB, and indeed, that's what happened.when he check-raised and UTG called, i wasn't sure if i wanted to three-bet or call here. i decided to call because basically the only three-bettable and check-raisable hand i could beat here was A-K, and some players don't even three-bet A-K. i also intended to raise the turn for value if a blank fell (my hand is disguised right now).knowing my thoughts, was the flop play okay?I don't like the double call here, and this is why. the nature of your two pair leads to straight draws and there is also a spade flush draw out there. YOU HAVE TO RAISE. IMO. if the SB has AK then you have him burned right now. I want him to pay two cold here. The pot is still gonna be big on teh turn so waiting until teh turn won't really protect your hand all that much.Turn: 6 (3 players, 8 BB)SB bets, SB calls, UTG folds.so a blank fell, and i raised for value with top two. when the SB only called, i eliminated K-K and Q-Q from his possible holdings.River: A (2 players, 13 BB)SB checks, [b][u]akishore checks.yikes, i HATED that river. i just figured that ace HAD to have helped him--he three-bet pre-flop and check-raised on the flop and slowed down on the turn. the ONE hand i could put him on was A-K, and he improved. i didn't want to bet and get check-raised. was this too passive?he might have you beat several ways. I'm not so worried about the spade as I am teh Ace. A threebet from the SB could very well mean AK or even AQs to try to get HU with you. JJ is also a good possibility. I like the check here, as you'll get CRed by a good player more than you wantaseem