66 replies to this topic

[Fade2241]

Hand #21: Nam Le Takes a Pot Worth 1 Million
Hand #21:Woody Moore has the button in seat 5, Nam Le raises under the gun to270,000, Hellmuth calls from middle position (with ~$1 mil chips,) and Ivey calls from thecutoff. The flop comes A103, Nam Le bets 660,000, and Hellmuth and Ivey both fold. Nam Le takes the pot worth more than 1 million.





Phil Hellmuth Defends His Action
PhilHellmuth hears something in the crowd behind him, talking about thelast hand against Nam Le and Phil Ivey. Hellmuth turns around to engagea heckler, saying "That was supposed to be a coin flip. I had jacks."

If anything, Hellmuth's comment may have just spurred his hecklers on even more.

Are reads really that much more important in live poker? That's the only logical explaination for this crazy strange play. Discuss

[pocket_change]

Lol.

I was there next to his friends. Helmuth said he didn't raise pre-flop because he felt like he was in a race no matter what with the jacks and he wanted to see a flop first to avoid getting drawn out on.

The player where he got eliminated was actually MUCH worse and HORRRRRRRRENDOUS.

[Fade2241]

Anyone have that play?!?

[GWCGWC]

To answer your question, reads are > than math. Unless you're wrong.

[chgocubs99]

To answer your question, reads are < than math.

FYP

[SilentButDeadly3]

lol @ Hellmuth. How don't you shove there with JJ? At the FT, only 6-handed, shortstacked, playing to win, etc.

Such a mistake in so many aspects.

Now if he comes back to win this and Nam had AK here, Hellmuth looks like a genius

[chgocubs99]

lol @ Hellmuth. How don't you shove there with JJ? At the FT, only 6-handed, shortstacked, playing to win, etc.

Such a mistake in so many aspects.

Now if he comes back to win this and Nam had AK here, Hellmuth looks like a genius to anyone that has no clue how to play poker

FYP

[scottyno]

please 1 time let Nam have had KTs or a weak ace that he might have had to think before calling with if Phil pushed in this spot

[SilentButDeadly3]

FYP

Figured that was implied. As I'm sure Sexton was flippin' shit when Hellmuth smoothed with Jacks in that spot.

[pocket_change]

I actually have video of his rant on my treo but you can't really hear what he's saying

[Mesisca]

Anyone have that play?!?

from cardplayer


Hand #26: Phil Hellmuth Eliminated in 6th Place ($229,820)
Hand #26: Phil Ivey has the button in seat 4, Hellmuth moves all in from the cutoff, and Moore quickly calls from the small blind with AQ. Hellmuth shows A9, and he's dominated as he faces potential elimination.

At different times, the crowd chants for either a queen or a nine.

The flop comes AJ2, bringing mixed results from the crowd. The turn card is the 7, and Hellmuth needs a nine on the river to stay alive.

The river card is the Q, and Woody Moore wins the pot with two pair, aces and queens.

Phil Hellmuth is eliminated in sixth place, earning $229,820. He is clearly disappointed, but it is enough for Hellmuth to cross the $10 million mark in career tournament earnings.

Hellmuth walks around the table to shake everyone's hand, and the audience gives him an appreciative standing ovation.

[CrookedLink]

I actually have video of his rant on my treo but you can't really hear what he's saying

lol post it up anyway

[cdipierr]

Hellmuth has repeatedly said recently that "the math guys" are wrong. Basically in PAD he's had situations where he might be getting 2:1 on a shortstack pf, with a hand like AT, and he'll fold. Basically he's been saying that his odds to win with his small stack are greater than 2:1, and thus his tournament life is more important than the hand. In this case if he's got JJ vs. AK, he's not going to flip for it because he feels he's a better player than the rest of the table.

Now, whether that's actually true or not is debatable. Certainly, you or I should and would push JJ there, but you are talking about the WSOP NLH bracelet leader, so he's certainly got some leeway to lay hands down like that using that reasoning.

[benhoug]

Hellmuth has repeatedly said recently that "the math guys" are wrong. Basically in PAD he's had situations where he might be getting 2:1 on a shortstack pf, with a hand like AT, and he'll fold. Basically he's been saying that his odds to win with his small stack are greater than 2:1, and thus his tournament life is more important than the hand. In this case if he's got JJ vs. AK, he's not going to flip for it because he feels he's a better player than the rest of the table.

Now, whether that's actually true or not is debatable. Certainly, you or I should and would push JJ there, but you are talking about the WSOP NLH bracelet leader, so he's certainly got some leeway to lay hands down like that using that reasoning.

I think I remember something similar like this from Doyle on PAD. He was getting 2:1 on some call and he was prob. around that much of a dog but he folded the hand b/c he said his chips were worth 4:1.

[TravisG]

@topic question:

i think that has zero to do with live poker or whatever. your "math"-decisions should always be a result of your read of your opponents handstrength, so generally:

on any street, if you are 100% sure that you either drawing dead or behind (on the river), there are no pot odds in the world who justify a call, unless you call for information.

[Tehtoe]

on any street, if you are 100% sure that you either drawing dead or behind (on the river), there are no pot odds in the world who justify a call, unless you call for information.

And if your reads are that spot on, I'm pretty sure you don't need the info.

[Sheiky]

A) We don't know Phil's actual hand

Phil Helmuth plays like a goofball but wins money

[Zach6668]

Are reads really that much more important in live poker? That's the only logical explaination for this crazy strange play. Discuss

Reads and math are not mutually exclusive.

That doesn't defend PH's retardo play, though.

[Kaveros]

In live poker reads are far more important than math.
I know all you internet math players scorn at the idea, but it is true.

Phil's way of playing and thinking, very similar to mine, is he doesn't like the current look on math.
He doesn't look at a situation and say "Oh well I am getting 3-1 on my money, insta call", he believes that
if he can save those chips, he can get them in the middle in a much better spot later on down the line.

I don't blame him for folding the hand.
Why not save them for when someone makes a terrible mistake, and people always make mistakes.

[Zach6668]

In live poker reads are far more important than math.
I know all you internet math players scorn at the idea, but it is true.

lol, no.

Math and reads are not mutually exclusive.

You use math to apply your reads, and make the correct decision.

Poker is still poker whether it is played online or on the felt.