19 replies to this topic

[TravisG]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

MP ($28.43)
CO ($3.90)
Button ($27.94)
Hero ($25.31)
BB ($23.53)
UTG ($14.35)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K , K .
4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 5 , 8 , K (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($2.62) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: ($2.62) A (2 players)
Hero bets $2, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $14, villain...


Table was super-tight. I've not seen such a tight table in a while. i figured, if i raise kings from sb, he's instafolding if he doesn't have a premium. over the 20 minutes or whatever i played with him. i wanted to really make it look like a bluff to make him reraise and so try to make him steal, OR tryting to make him feel supersafe if he has trips.

is my line ok?

edit: massive editaments, converter ****ed up.

[mtdesmoines]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

MP ($28.43)
CO ($3.90)
Button ($27.94)
Hero ($25.31)
BB ($23.53)
UTG ($14.35)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K , K .
4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 5 , 8 , K (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($2.62) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: ($2.62) A (2 players)
Hero bets $2, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $14, villain...
Table was super-tight. I've not seen such a tight table in a while. i figured, if i raise kings from sb, he's instafolding if he doesn't have a premium. over the 20 minutes or whatever i played with him. i wanted to really make it look like a bluff to make him reraise and so try to make him steal, OR tryting to make him feel supersafe if he has trips.

is my line ok?

edit: massive editaments, converter ****ed up.

Don't check the turn. Bet SOMETHING. I wait for months to flop a set of kings. I bet everything. Do you really get so many premium hands that getting value out of this one isn't a necessity?

[TravisG]

Don't check the turn. Bet SOMETHING. I wait for months to flop a set of kings. I bet everything. Do you really get so many premium hands that getting value out of this one isn't a necessity?

okay, how much should i bet on the turn? i don't want to chase him away, but i don't want to make it too obvious and make it look like a "PLEAAAAASEEE call bet"

[mtdesmoines]

okay, how much should i bet on the turn? i don't want to chase him away, but i don't want to make it too obvious and make it look like a "PLEAAAAASEEE call bet"

Start at $2.00. If villain has a 5, he's coming all the way anyway.

I suppose you're going to say that checking the turn got you to the river with his A, and that you wouldn't have gotten any action if you had bet the turn. Your REAL action is coming from a 5 anyway.

[David_Nicoson]

Raise preflop. If the villain is at all aware of hand values in blind vs. blind, he's expecting your raising range to be very wide. You're going to get a lot of value by raising.

If he gives up his big blind to you too often, go back in time and make him so sick of your stealing that he might give you action this time.

Edited by David_Nicoson, 04 February 2008 - 06:14 AM.

[TravisG]

Start at $2.00. If villain has a 5, he's coming all the way anyway.

I suppose you're going to say that checking the turn got you to the river with his A, and that you wouldn't have gotten any action if you had bet the turn. Your REAL action is coming from a 5 anyway.

no i'm not saying that. you get money when you hit big but your opponents do too. i just wanted to extract more in case he has nothing. it wasnt about the ace at all, i wanted him to rebluff.

[TravisG]

Raise preflop. If the villain is at all aware of hand values in blind vs. blind, he's expecting your raising range to be very wide. You're going to get a lot of value by raising.

If he gives up his big blind to you too often, go back in time and make him so sick of your stealing that he might give you action this time.

no. when i say supertight, i mean supertight. villain was seen instafolding bb to any raise if he didn't have a hand (ofc he didn'T show down every time he called, but the fact that he almost never defended should be an evidence for super tightness here). i'm sure i got more value here with limping, but that doesn't mean i do it that way every time in sb vs bb.

edit: sorry for doublepostaments.

[David_Nicoson]

no. when i say supertight, i mean supertight. villain was seen instafolding bb to any raise if he didn't have a hand (ofc he didn'T show down every time he called, but the fact that he almost never defended should be an evidence for super tightness here). i'm sure i got more value here with limping, but that doesn't mean i do it that way every time in sb vs bb.

edit: sorry for doublepostaments.

Here's the thing. If he's super tight, you're not getting action from him after the flop unless he hits, either. And at that point, you may not want action.

If you're taking advantage of his tightness, then you're betting something all over the place with ATC to make him fold. So unless he's tight/stupid, if you suddenly go into check/call mode, he's going to make note.

It looks like he has at least a 5 by the river action, so this looks like a case of you both slow-playing.

[fdsafdsa]

If you don't like being at a supertight table, then change tables.

But the better option is to just loosen up your game and start raising a lot more, thats where the real value comes from at these types of tables, not by getting the most values out of monsters. Having said that, I'd bet small on the turn, likely the only action will come if BB has a 5, and he's not going to fold it anyway.

[TravisG]

If you don't like being at a supertight table, then change tables.

But the better option is to just loosen up your game and start raising a lot more, thats where the real value comes from at these types of tables, not by getting the most values out of monsters.

after reading and rereading my posts i see no single reference to me not liking tight tables. i was just talking about that specific hand.

Here's the thing. If he's super tight, you're not getting action from him after the flop unless he hits, either. And at that point, you may not want action.

If you're taking advantage of his tightness, then you're betting something all over the place with ATC to make him fold. So unless he's tight/stupid, if you suddenly go into check/call mode, he's going to make note.

It looks like he has at least a 5 by the river action, so this looks like a case of you both slow-playing.

my aim was not to make him move it with a bb special 2 pair or something. i just want to extract a little bit (and if its only 1 dollar.. its something), which i will, if he only flops top pair with no kicker or something. tight players dont have to be feared/passive after the flop. they just have tighter starting requirements . i was lucky to hit trips in this hand, which are super disguised, but my aim of just completing obv. was not getting trips. i'm pretty sure that this move (as it was something that i never did while playing with him [at least i don't remember his name. i don't have pokertracker or anything]) was more +ev than raising in that spot. i just need help on the postflop play here.

[David_Nicoson]

i just need help on the postflop play here.

As played, bet the flop.

[sactownjoey]

Trying to extract value in a battle of the unraised blinds is a crapshoot.

Bet the flop? Why? Unless he got any part of it, he's folding. That can't be the best way to get value.

I can see betting the turn but a c/c on the flop then lead on the turn looks like a good hand and implies we are not afraid of the paired board. The check on the turn makes it look like we are afraid of the 5 and, if the villain has a 5, lets him think he's going to get all our chips by slow playing. He's never folding anyway if he has it but if he doesn't, he's probably folding the turn.

So now on the river, if he has trip 5s, we're probably getting all his chips anyway. If he doesn't have a 5 but has an A, we are getting more of his chips than we would have gotten on the turn. If he's got nothing, we weren't making money at any point in the hand anyway. I like the way this hand was played.

[mtdesmoines]

Bet the flop? Why? Unless he got any part of it, he's folding. That can't be the best way to get value.

If you're at a tight table, you should be running it over, whether you have a hand or not. This time you just happen to have a hand.

[krup24]

check fold the flop we can't be ahead here

[sactownjoey]

If you're at a tight table, you should be running it over, whether you have a hand or not. This time you just happen to have a hand.

And, by definition, if you have a tight table, he's folding. You have to hope he says "doggone it, I'm sick and tired of being pushed around and I'm not going to take it any more. I raise with nothing!!"

Why is he going to put a bunch of chips at risk in an unraised pot with nothing, even if hero has been a LAG?

[mtdesmoines]

Why is he going to put a bunch of chips at risk in an unraised pot with nothing, even if hero has been a LAG?

That's what makes playing against nits so easy.
They tell you every time they have something.
And they tell you every time they don't.

[David_Nicoson]

And, by definition, if you have a tight table, he's folding. You have to hope he says "doggone it, I'm sick and tired of being pushed around and I'm not going to take it any more. I raise with nothing!!"

Why is he going to put a bunch of chips at risk in an unraised pot with nothing, even if hero has been a LAG?

It's a given that we're getting less value from a tight player than a loose one when we make a big hand. We can alternatively hope, "Doggone it, I'm sick and tired of not having anything. I bet with nothing!" which doesn't seem any more likely to work and makes us less money when it does. Granted, we'd like for him to catch on fourth street, so there's some value in that.

[NoBBiR]

Raise preflop anyway. Letting the guy in for free, and getting stacked when he flops top two with J3 is -EV.

The rest is fine.

[TravisG]

Raise preflop anyway. Letting the guy in for free, and getting stacked when he flops top two with J3 is -EV.

The rest is fine.

i thought about it a little more, and i think you & david are actually right. i don't extract enough money with limping against a tight guy to even out the losses that i take against a bb special.

i still don't know if what i did was completely wrong, i mean that guy seemed tight, but not feared/scared at all. i think he would still throw at least one bet if he flops top pair with Q7 on a Q 2 T board or anything like that.

[krup24]

i thought about it a little more, and i think you & david are actually right. i don't extract enough money with limping against a tight guy to even out the losses that i take against a bb special.

i still don't know if what i did was completely wrong, i mean that guy seemed tight, but not feared/scared at all. i think he would still throw at least one bet if he flops top pair with Q7 on a Q 2 T board or anything like that.

it may not be wrong but its borderline criminal. raise this everyday allday unless BB is an absolute maniac and will raise each and every hand. then we can talk.