20 replies to this topic

[jmbreslin]

Trivial push?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t9127)
SB (t14366)
BB (t10950)
UTG (t8138)
UTG+1 (t8293)
MP1 (t5775)
MP2 (t3928)
Hero (t6923)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, 7.
4 folds, Hero ???

[HighwayStar]

Reads?
If the players to act are likely to call, I don't like shoving here, especially as all 3 have you covered mand A7 is NOT the sort of hand i want to see a showdown with.
If they seem passive then shove shove shove.

[BeaverStyle]

Easy shove... Low M, and you're the first one in the pot.... shippy ship shipperooo

[Cappy37]

This is my own personal experience, but i can fill a football stadium with the amount of times I've seen the tourney lobby pushing near the bubble with ace-rag.. I can count on my fingers the amount of times I've been pleased with it.

It's a turbo, if cashing is your concern, someone is getting frisky soon enough. If you are ready to double or go home, shove it on in. There's no right or wrong response, really.

[SuperJon]

This is my own personal experience, but i can fill a football stadium with the amount of times I've seen the tourney lobby pushing near the bubble with ace-rag.. I can count on my fingers the amount of times I've been pleased with it.

It's a turbo, if cashing is your concern, someone is getting frisky soon enough. If you are ready to double or go home, shove it on in. There's no right or wrong response, really.

Fold?

[Cappy37]

Fold?

Anytime I say fold on this board everyone jumps on my back.

But any play in a turbo that is relying mostly upon folds to be +EV late in a turbo is likely a bad play.

So I would tend to agree with you.

[craiger]

Anytime I say fold on this board everyone jumps on my back.

But any play in a turbo that is relying mostly upon folds to be +EV late in a turbo is likely a bad play.

So I would tend to agree with you.

I would fold here on the bubble...but I would f*cking hate busting on the bubble pushing with some crappy ace rag. I'm sure in the next 4 or 5 free hands you will pick up something better...increasing your chances of doubling up...and in the mean time someone will probably bust out and you will make the money anyways. It's all about tilt prevention baby

[MovingIn]

It depends on what you want out of this turbo. If you just want to cash and get a ROI, then fold and wait for someone else to lose their patience. If you are trying to win the turbo and cash large, then with such a low M, you want to push and try to take the blinds uncontested or double through.

But what you ought to do depends on what you want out of this thing.

[potatoman]

I usually fold in this spot. There's two shorter stacks and a bunch of people who could easily go broke in one hand. I find patience pays off big in these situations.

[copernicus]

Abuse the bubble! with such a low M this is as no brainer a push as there is. You'll fold out everything except monsters, its a tough hand to play post flop even if you hit an A.

[jmbreslin]

Interesting collection of responses. Here are some answers to the questions posed:

1) No relevant reads. Final table started recently and I had been playing an STT and Omaha cash game at the same time.

2) This is a $3.25, so the quality of play is marginally better than at $1.10 but by no means stellar. I would not be surprised to get a call from someone as wide as any PP, Ax, KQ, KJs, maybe even QJs. That being said, I have noticed that these loose calls are less frequent than at $1.10

3) Since I just recently moved up from $1.10 to $3.25 45-turbos, I've decided to focus on cashing until I get my sea legs at the new buy-in. Regardless, though, once we get to the bubble I will always play to cash at that point even if my overall strategy is to go deep. I absolutely hate bubbling in 45-man SnGs.

4) Cappy, I've been thinking about the same thing lately. Given that people at these micro levels love to call pushes with Aces, would I rather see something like JT here than A7?

[Sheiky]

4) Cappy, I've been thinking about the same thing lately. Given that people at these micro levels love to call pushes with Aces, would I rather see something like JT here than A7?

I think having the ace as a blocker makes it better to push with A7, there's only 3 aces in the deck once you get dealt your cards so your less likely to run into A8+ behind you.

[Cappy37]

2) This is a $3.25, so the quality of play is marginally better than at $1.10 but by no means stellar. I would not be surprised to get a call from someone as wide as any PP, Ax, KQ, KJs, maybe even QJs. That being said, I have noticed that these loose calls are less frequent than at $1.10

JT and T9 are calling your ass, too. Which is very good, but something you need to be aware of. Another factor to consider is you are in the CO of an unopened pot, which widens calling ranges significantly if these guys haven't read HOH recently. Your shove smells a lot like a steal/desperation in this spot, I wouldn't count on AJ+/66+ in this case.

3) Since I just recently moved up from $1.10 to $3.25 45-turbos, I've decided to focus on cashing until I get my sea legs at the new buy-in. Regardless, though, once we get to the bubble I will always play to cash at that point even if my overall strategy is to go deep. I absolutely hate bubbling in 45-man SnGs.

you are not alone in this thought, believe me. While I agree with Copernicus about abusing the bubble, there isn't a single player left to act behind you that you are "forcing to make a decision for their tournament life". This is very important to the decision making process. You can cripple anyone, but no one acting behind you is looking at the tourney lobby after the hand.

4) Cappy, I've been thinking about the same thing lately. Given that people at these micro levels love to call pushes with Aces, would I rather see something like JT here than A7?

You'd rather cash and not have to worry about it. If you claim anything else, you're lying.

But yeah, the only value in A7 is folding out those left to act, which makes A7 about as powerful as 52 in this situation. The rare times we fold them out does not offset the time you are called by better/dominated/flipping on the bubble. If this isn't a turbo, I'd be more inclined to raise/push, simply because you don't look nearly as desperate if your M actually means something.

[Cappy37]

I think having the ace as a blocker makes it better to push with A7, there's only 3 aces in the deck once you get dealt your cards so your less likely to run into A8+ behind you.

In Stud, if you have (KK)x and you have 2 opponents left to act with (xx)A behind you, it is actually MORE likely someone has a pair of aces than if only one Ace upcard is on the board behind you. Do the math.

In this instance, the fact that not one of the first 4 players entered the pot suggests thatindeed, no one before you has an ace, it makes it all the more likely that someone behind you can have an ace, and 50% of those aces have you crushed.

[Sheiky]

I have a PDF that documents the EV for situations like these against various types of calling ranges, you could push here with an M of ten and still make an +EV decision, with JT the pushing is still slightly +EV, but no where close to what pushing with A7 is.

[smc0170]

Shovey shovey shove shove.

You're pushing against people who have big enough chip stacks to where they don't feel committed to call. If they call you with K-Q or J-10, so be it. But it's definitely +EV (this term...I do not think I know what it means ) to move here. With blinds that big, every pot you can steal helps. Plus, if you pick up this one, you greatly increase your chances to cash.

Of course, I bubble out in live tournaments more than my fair share, so take what you will from it

[jmbreslin]

While I agree with Copernicus about abusing the bubble, there isn't a single player left to act behind you that you are "forcing to make a decision for their tournament life". This is very important to the decision making process. You can cripple anyone, but no one acting behind you is looking at the tourney lobby after the hand.

Good point, all those left to act behind have me covered, and some of them have me well covered. Factor in the fact that they likely have never heard of the gap concept, and it becomes much more difficult to abuse the bubble at this level. I think bubble abuse is something that applies more to higher levels where the typical bubble opponents will be half-decent players. I don't think most of these players even consider where the raise is coming from and that it is more likely to be a steal coming from CO, I think they look at their cards and think "KQ is pretty, I call." I've seen so many situations where players will call large pushes from UTG for 3/4 of their stack with A2 or 33.

[AimHigher]

If their range is something like KQo, KQs, A8o+ and 55+ then about 35% of the time one of them will call. If you're called, you have about 32% equity against this range. Basically, you'll get called 1 in 3 times and be dominated. It seems to me if there are two shorties in front of you, one of which has an M of about 1.5, the smartest move is just to fold.

[jmbreslin]

It may be a different SnG, but here's an example of the quality of bubble play at the $3 turbo level. I bubbled in a $3.25 6-max STT last night when I pushed on the button w/ A9s as the shortie and the BB called off half his 3000 chip stack with JTs (he turned a J). On the bubble.

[HighwayStar]

That isn't TOO bad.. Depends on blinds and antes though.