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Soft Severed Deep Nuts With Action


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#41 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:33 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:25 AM, said:

This seems to be your favorite line to take with your big hands because I've seen it in like probably 2 or 3 other hands you've posted.
I take this line in certain situations. Sometimes it probably didnt matter if I 3bet shovel, or 4 bet shovel, or flat call and trap.But Ive experienced really shittty situations where my aggression is too much, and they fold hands that they could be investing more money on a later street with.Or I've been in spots where i cut off their line to bluff me, by being aggressive. I'm not saying that there is 1 correct, and 1 incorrect. although it sounds like you are implying there is.This villain isnt folding AA,JJ,10,10 or AJ. he might even get al his money in with A,10. So we're essentially limited his range to this exact hands. and only get paid off by these hands.an outcome that wont change on the turn. If he is as LAG as we say, he still ships with a set on a 4 card straight board. but does he ship with TOP pair on the flop? does he ship with AK AQ, KK,QQ J,10, 8,9 Q,9, A,x??



#42 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:34 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:26 AM, said:

I figured someone else would point out that the caliber of play is slightly different at 100NL compared to 300/600NL.We're not Daniel Negreanu. The villain is not Gus Hansen. This isn't High Stakes Poker.Also, DN is IN POSITION in this hand. Do you realize how much that changes?
It can go both ways. if villain had a shippable hand like AA, or JJ. would he 3 bet or flat call?



#43 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:40 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:25 AM, said:

How many hands can we have there? How many hands can he expect to get us to fold after calling the flop there?
If we're villain:its not a question of, how many hands can we get to fold its, How strong does hero appear, was his c/r just an attempt to take this, and now his flat call is weak with a desperate attempt to improve on the turn.



#44 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:43 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:33 AM, said:

I take this line in certain situations. Sometimes it probably didnt matter if I 3bet shovel, or 4 bet shovel, or flat call and trap.But Ive experienced really shittty situations where my aggression is too much, and they fold hands that they could be investing more money on a later street with.Or I've been in spots where i cut off their line to bluff me, by being aggressive. I'm not saying that there is 1 correct, and 1 incorrect. although it sounds like you are implying there is.This villain isnt folding AA,JJ,10,10 or AJ. he might even get al his money in with A,10. So we're essentially limited his range to this exact hands. and only get paid off by these hands.an outcome that wont change on the turn. If he is as LAG as we say, he still ships with a set on a 4 card straight board. but does he ship with TOP pair on the flop? does he ship with AK AQ, KK,QQ J,10, 8,9 Q,9, A,x??
I'm saying that against his range of hands, the best move is to just get the money in here becuase it's unlikely he's bluffing. Also, I think saying that he's stupid enough to ship a set on a 4 card straight board (obv if a K or Q peels on the turn) but he'll fold top pair on the flop with AK/AQ are kind of contradicting statements.

#45 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:44 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:34 AM, said:

It can go both ways. if villain had a shippable hand like AA, or JJ. would he 3 bet or flat call?
How does being in position go both ways?If I'm the villain with AA, I'm 3 betting the flop 110% of the time. Look at the stacks. I want the money in there and the pot isn't big enough to get it in there.

#46 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:51 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:43 AM, said:

I'm saying that against his range of hands, the best move is to just get the money in here becuase it's unlikely he's bluffing. Also, I think saying that he's stupid enough to ship a set on a 4 card straight board (obv if a K or Q peels on the turn) but he'll fold top pair on the flop with AK/AQ are kind of contradicting statements.
Meh, 10 outs for the winner looks more appealing than3 outs for top 2.



#47 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:53 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:44 AM, said:

How does being in position go both ways?If I'm the villain with AA, I'm 3 betting the flop 110% of the time. Look at the stacks. I want the money in there and the pot isn't big enough to get it in there.
No, i meant, which player we use as DN. Meaning if villain was DN and Cwik was Hansen. Would are villain 3bet a monster or would he flat call from postion?



#48 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:58 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:53 AM, said:

No, i meant, which player we use as DN. Meaning if villain was DN and Cwik was Hansen. Would are villain 3bet a monster or would he flat call from postion?
You can't compare these hands. You just can't. There is history between DN and Gus. There are other factors that are deeper than the cards and some really vague reads of the player. http://www.cardplaye...cle/all/36/4778DN plays the way he does in the hand because it's unlikely that he'd have a hand as strong as he does on that board, and he knows that Gus would know that. There is psychology bred from familiarity of the two players. That doesn't exist often at all at 100NL.

#49 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:02 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:51 AM, said:

Meh, 10 outs for the winner looks more appealing than3 outs for top 2.
Depending on our hand, he could have the following outsIf we have JT: 10 outsIf we have AT: 10 outsIf we have AJ: 7 outs

#50 David_Nicoson

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:08 AM

It is my experience that the Broadway flop makes lots of people lose their minds and play level 0 poker. It hits everything. People over-count their outs by considering their gut-shot draw to go with their pair, even though the pair is obviously no good and, as in this case, a gut-shot draw is to a split. A typical reaction (and I'm not saying that this is entirely wrong), is to ship all those chips in there and not try to discern which outs are good and which are not, particularly from out of position. If he makes a brilliant play here and lays down bottom set, there's still a clear upside to us in that he gives up his equity in the pot.The hands we really don't want to fold are AK and AQ. And it's not clear to me that the villain will be more willing to commit with those hands after a brick turn than on the flop.
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
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#51 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:13 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 8:08 AM, said:

It is my experience that the Broadway flop makes lots of people lose their minds and play level 0 poker. It hits everything. People over-count their outs by considering their gut-shot draw to go with their pair, even though the pair is obviously no good and, as in this case, a gut-shot draw is to a split. A typical reaction (and I'm not saying that this is entirely wrong), is to ship all those chips in there and not try to discern which outs are good and which are not, particularly from out of position. If he makes a brilliant play here and lays down bottom set, there's still a clear upside to us in that he gives up his equity in the pot.The hands we really don't want to fold are AK and AQ. And it's not clear to me that the villain will be more willing to commit with those hands after a brick turn than on the flop.
For the record, I hate shoving. I think shoving IS his chance to fold AK or AQ which he very well might play like this. I really think that with stack sizes, the minraise is the best play here. We really tie those AK/AQ hands to the pot since (who folds to minraises anyway, Zach?) they'll figure that they have a gutshot plus possible 2 pair outs (good analysis there David) and then when the turn comes, the pot will be large in relation to the stacks and we can stick it in or just bet half of their stack again. This makes sure that we get the most value from AK/AQ which I feel he will hold more often than a bluff here.

#52 David_Nicoson

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:26 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

For the record, I hate shoving. I think shoving IS his chance to fold AK or AQ which he very well might play like this.
I think I muddied the waters with a hypothetical position change. The villain would want to shove a lot of stuff, particularly if he were OOP.I'm not saying we should shove. If we raise to $90 or something and he calls, he'll discover he can't really fold the turn.
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
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#53 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:35 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 8:26 AM, said:

I'm not saying we should shove. If we raise to $90 or something and he calls, he'll discover he can't really fold the turn.
This is my thinking as well. Many people don't think far enough ahead. They see that they got minraised and if they have like TPTK and a gutshot, they figure they can't possibly fold. Then the turn comes off and they're getting shoved on and the pot's so big and their stack is so small, they realize they're kind of stuck.

#54 Sheiky

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:12 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 3:14 PM, said:

If you dont understand the point i was making, I cant help youhere try watching this old High stakes hand vs too LAG players. everyone feel free to watchNotice the line DN takes with a monster.
Added to what others have already pointed out, they are playing a lot deeper than this hand and the board is completely different.

#55 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:19 AM

Can we just get Cwik in here to post results so I can see it was JJ vs Kq and none of this matters anyways cuz the money goes in anyways.



#56 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:24 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 9:19 AM, said:

Can we just get Cwik in here to post results so I can see it was JJ vs Kq and none of this matters anyways cuz the money goes in anyways.
Cwik shoved and the guy folded.I don't remember, but I think he said that he's pretty sure the small reraise (minreraise) was probably correct. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

#57 TB17

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:34 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:08 AM, said:

calling or pushing doesnt change the outcome of the cards. If we're prepared to stack off on the flop, why should we change on the turn?he is a lag, he has a large range and could be doing this lots of hands that dont fill up if the board pairsthe bottom line is that villain is LAG, has been there a while.. probably breaking down, and now made a type of min raise 3 bet on a rainbowflop.I have trouble believing this is a Big hand from villain.
so if the board pairs you're willing to stack off? Why should we get it in dead? what makes you so sure that he's willing to stick it in without a set? Zach specifically stated that he HASNT been there a while, so I dunno where you got the fact that he is "breaking down"In position, this is a clear call. Out of position, EVEN if he has a hand like 89/Q9/AQ/AK, theres a small chance any more money goes in if he doesnt get there.Also LOL at comparing 100 NL to High Stakes Poker.
Goodbye FCP.

#58 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:46 AM

View PostTB17, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 11:34 AM, said:

so if the board pairs you're willing to stack off? Why should we get it in dead? what makes you so sure that he's willing to stick it in without a set? Zach specifically stated that he HASNT been there a while, so I dunno where you got the fact that he is "breaking down"In position, this is a clear call. Out of position, EVEN if he has a hand like 89/Q9/AQ/AK, theres a small chance any more money goes in if he doesnt get there.Also LOL at comparing 100 NL to High Stakes Poker.
teddy teddy... you're right about the mistaje i made on the "breaking down"i think someone wrote that in another topic and i just had it in my mind for this hand for some reason.also, Not sure the significance of us getting our money in on the turn vs a flopped set, or on the flop. Regardless, turns out Cwik 4bet all in and villain folded. So, i guess that very very small % of the time that he 3bets with a weak holding happened to come up here. But I wouldnt worry about analyzing the situation and the outcomeLOL @ you thinking i'm comparing 100NL to high stakes. I was giving an example of how hands can be played out. Dissecting hands, regardless of stakes or situations is always a good way to expand your skill set and add other tactics to your arsenal Its a game of cards with betting chips. There is no reason to be 1 dimensional when applying thought to a hand.also, how did you do in vegas when you were here? just wondering.



#59 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:58 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 8:02 AM, said:

Depending on our hand, he could have the following outsIf we have JT: 9 outsIf we have AT: 7 outsIf we have AJ: 7 outs
FYP.u were refering to himhaving Ak,AQ right?



#60 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 12:07 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

FYP.u were refering to himhaving Ak,AQ right?
Yeah, I added an extra out somewhere against JT.Against AT, we have 10 outs though, you're forgetting that 3 the 3 jacks win for us.




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