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Soft Severed Deep Nuts With Action


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#21 Acid_Knight

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:04 PM

View PostTB17, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 4:00 PM, said:

Dingalingadingdong
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#22 David_Nicoson

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:08 PM

I lead the flop. Everybody loves broadway flops. We'll get raised a lot.
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#23 cwik

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 05:25 PM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 4:08 PM, said:

I lead the flop. Everybody loves broadway flops. We'll get raised a lot.
I almost never donk out, especially when I get 3bet preflop.

#24 bobbywithani

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 06:30 PM

View Postcwik, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 7:25 PM, said:

I almost never donk out, especially when I get 3bet preflop.
You should start doing it, I was suprised at how much value I get out of it. I especially like it on this board because I believe the money will get in the middle a lot more when he has a big hand. People don't want to believe that you will donk with the nuts so I think it makes it a good play.
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#25 Royal_Tour

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 09:16 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 3:49 PM, said:

This is actually fundamental. In general, each raise increment that someone makes represents a deeper and deeper commitment to the pot and a (theoretically) stronger and stronger hand.
Thats not true in terms of bluffing, and information. which are 2 very big components to NL.

Quote

When someone puts in a 3rd bet post flop, they usually have total air or a hand that they will not fold.Take it 1 step down and you'll see people raise with a wide variety of made hands, draws and air on the flop without having made up their mind what they're going to do if they are raised.
Your excuse for 4 betting the flop is along the lines of, if he 3 bets, he has air or has something. Thats a pretty vague description and doesnt sell the idea of 4 betting very well.we get his chips when he has something, or he folds when he has air.what benefits come from a call, and turn check?If he has a hand, it doesnt matter. he bets the turn and we raise and money gets in the pot similar to the flop.Upside to this play, If he has air and we appear weak, we might just get him to make a big foolish bluff since he is a LAG.** There is some other considerations about a poor turn card. But then its a question of what do you believe to be a bigger factor, the odds of a K or Q peeling on the turn and potentially killing some action, or him having a hand not worthy of stacking off on the flop?

View PostTB17, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 4:00 PM, said:

Dingalingadingdong
Is this what you consider yourself when you play poker?Also, another note.. this month issue of bluff has a great article about EV in it, many of you should read it since I strongly believe some people have a skewed opinion of how to apply it to poker hands in NL



#26 Acid_Knight

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 09:37 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 9:16 PM, said:

Thats not true in terms of bluffing, and information. which are 2 very big components to NL.
Thanks. I never knew this. Can you give me a little more of a description of what this "bluffing" concept is?

#27 TB17

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 10:14 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

Thats not true in terms of bluffing, and information. which are 2 very big components to NL. Your excuse for 4 betting the flop is along the lines of, if he 3 bets, he has air or has something. Thats a pretty vague description and doesnt sell the idea of 4 betting very well.we get his chips when he has something, or he folds when he has air.what benefits come from a call, and turn check?If he has a hand, it doesnt matter. he bets the turn and we raise and money gets in the pot similar to the flop.Upside to this play, If he has air and we appear weak, we might just get him to make a big foolish bluff since he is a LAG.** There is some other considerations about a poor turn card. But then its a question of what do you believe to be a bigger factor, the odds of a K or Q peeling on the turn and potentially killing some action, or him having a hand not worthy of stacking off on the flop?Is this what you consider yourself when you play poker?Also, another note.. this month issue of bluff has a great article about EV in it, many of you should read it since I strongly believe some people have a skewed opinion of how to apply it to poker hands in NL
Any A-T is not a good card for us. The 3 bet has all the information that we need. Are we stacking off when the board pairs? If you can get away from it then I can see calling. Well, no I still don't.K or Q kills our action and we basically chop if any more money goes in unless we're being freerolled.A-J-T we get put into a pretty gross spot because we're either drawing dead already or at best having to fade 9 outs if he has AK/AQ, OR it can also be an action killer if he has AT/JT.If he DOES have AQ/AK, and we call on the flop, how do we guarantee that we get our money in even if a blank falls? You think one pair is gonna fire another shell? What does fire another shell? The only benefit is that we POSSIBLY get more value out of a bluff. And that's not guaranteed at all.
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#28 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 06:08 AM

View PostTB17, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 10:14 PM, said:

Any A-T is not a good card for us. The 3 bet has all the information that we need. Are we stacking off when the board pairs? If you can get away from it then I can see calling. Well, no I still don't.
calling or pushing doesnt change the outcome of the cards. If we're prepared to stack off on the flop, why should we change on the turn?he is a lag, he has a large range and could be doing this lots of hands that dont fill up if the board pairsthe bottom line is that villain is LAG, has been there a while.. probably breaking down, and now made a type of min raise 3 bet on a rainbowflop.I have trouble believing this is a Big hand from villain.



#29 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 06:12 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 9:37 PM, said:

Thanks. I never knew this. Can you give me a little more of a description of what this "bluffing" concept is?
sklansky's NL holdem book is something you should read



#30 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 06:28 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 12:16 AM, said:

Thats not true in terms of bluffing, and information. which are 2 very big components to NL. Your excuse for 4 betting the flop is along the lines of, if he 3 bets, he has air or has something. Thats a pretty vague description and doesnt sell the idea of 4 betting very well.we get his chips when he has something, or he folds when he has air.what benefits come from a call, and turn check?If he has a hand, it doesnt matter. he bets the turn and we raise and money gets in the pot similar to the flop.Upside to this play, If he has air and we appear weak, we might just get him to make a big foolish bluff since he is a LAG.
Ok, so I'm *not* crazy... or at least the only one who thinks this.I agree he is either really strong or absolutely nothing. If he's really strong, we've got 2 betting rounds left and our chips are going in this pot baring a turn check through and some really weird runner runner combination... I think he shows up with something he'll lay down to more aggression more often than that happens.If he has air we give him the opportunity to stab at it by calling... which is really the only way to get more value from air since the next bet/raise is the one that commits the person to the pot... if we raise we're making air go away.As far as not slowplaying and "letting opponents" catch up:

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 9:08 AM, said:

calling or pushing doesnt change the outcome of the cards. If we're prepared to stack off on the flop, why should we change on the turn?

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 11:01 AM, said:

If you take this line and a broadway card falls before you shove, get over it you're shoving anyway.
is where I'm coming from as well.Slow playing is lame... but I hardly consider smooth calling a 3-bet to be slow playing.
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#31 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:02 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:08 AM, said:

calling or pushing doesnt change the outcome of the cards. If we're prepared to stack off on the flop, why should we change on the turn?he is a lag, he has a large range and could be doing this lots of hands that dont fill up if the board pairsthe bottom line is that villain is LAG, has been there a while.. probably breaking down, and now made a type of min raise 3 bet on a rainbowflop.I have trouble believing this is a Big hand from villain.
1. We're not trying to change the outcome of the cards. If we get our money in on the flop when he has AK or JJ or whatever and get outdrawn, we should be happy that he put money in as a big underdog. If the turn is a Q (when he has AK) or the board pairs and the money goes in, WE are making a mistake because we let him catch up before stacking off. It's a pretty simple concept.2. Even LAG players make big hands. How on earth do you have trouble believing this is a big hand? Did you read the OP? We raised and he minraised us preflop. The flop is 3 broadway cards and we checkraised him and he 3-bet us. Rainbow board, big deal, it's still SUPER coordinated with 3 big cards out there. You're telling me that this guy has 78s or some other random piece of crap hand here often enough, AND will continue bluffing despite our obvious interest in the pot, often enough that we should flat call his flop bet and then check to him on the turn so that he can keep bluffing?

#32 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:05 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:02 AM, said:

1. We're not trying to change the outcome of the cards. If we get our money in on the flop when he has AK or JJ or whatever and get outdrawn, we should be happy that he put money in as a big underdog. If the turn is a Q (when he has AK) or the board pairs and the money goes in, WE are making a mistake because we let him catch up before stacking off. It's a pretty simple concept.2. Even LAG players make big hands. How on earth do you have trouble believing this is a big hand? Did you read the OP? We raised and he minraised us preflop. The flop is 3 broadway cards and we checkraised him and he 3-bet us. Rainbow board, big deal, it's still SUPER coordinated with 3 big cards out there. You're telling me that this guy has 78s or some other random piece of crap hand here often enough, AND will continue bluffing despite our obvious interest in the pot, often enough that we should flat call his flop bet and then check to him on the turn so that he can keep bluffing?
I dont agree with this at all. 1 - I think this idea is too text book in the sense that "always get your money in good, limit your mistakes" can be applied to any hands at any time. But to say its a mistake for us to run a trap play vs a LAG who could potentially 3bet with air... meh I dont feel it is.2 - My read is what i've been told. villain is LAG, and geting sloppy. do u think this is AA or JJ all the time here. It could very well be AK, maybe even a stubborn KK who doesnt believe we have an Ace



#33 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:09 AM

View PostTB17, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 10:14 PM, said:

If he DOES have AQ/AK, and we call on the flop, how do we guarantee that we get our money in even if a blank falls? You think one pair is gonna fire another shell? What does fire another shell? The only benefit is that we POSSIBLY get more value out of a bluff. And that's not guaranteed at all.
I think that the times that we can get more $$ out of AK/AQ on this flop becuase he thinks we might have AJ/AT/JT and he'll have a ton of outs will outweigh the few times that he's bluffing here and would fire more shells at the pot. If he does have one of these hands, he'd for sure call a small 4-bet to see the next card. Then the pot size will be big enough in relation to the stacks to get the rest of the money in. If he's got AK/AQ and we call, I bet he checks back the turn like 90% of the time becuase he can't really beat anything and if he knows anything about poker, he'll figure that out.Think about it. What is our range once we call his 3-bet. The weakest hand we probably ever show up with there is AQ and more often than not we have 2 pair or a bigger made hand already. I don't see how he's gonna keep bluffing when we've put so much money in and our range is so strong and so narrow.

#34 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:11 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:05 AM, said:

1 - I think this idea is too text book in the sense that "always get your money in good, limit your mistakes" can be applied to any hands at any time. But to say its a mistake for us to run a trap play vs a LAG who could potentially 3bet with air... meh I dont feel it is.
Too textbook? You mean where the book says that getting your money in when you're ahead is good and getting it in drawing dead is bad? WTF are you talking about?

#35 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:14 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:11 AM, said:

Too textbook? You mean where the book says that getting your money in when you're ahead is good and getting it in drawing dead is bad? WTF are you talking about?
If you dont understand the point i was making, I cant help youhere try watching this old High stakes hand vs too LAG players. everyone feel free to watchNotice the line DN takes with a monster.



#36 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:16 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

If you dont understand the point i was making, I cant help youhere try watching this old High stakes hand vs too LAG players. everyone feel free to watch
:club: DN what a n00bHow are he not to know his full house no good?
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#37 Royal_Tour

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:20 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:16 AM, said:

:club: DN what a n00bHow are he not to know his full house no good?
he needs to follow text book i guess. If he got his money in on the flop and then gets outdrawn, maybe he sleeps better? I dunno



#38 fdsafdsa

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:23 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:14 AM, said:

If you dont understand the point i was making, I cant help youhere try watching this old High stakes hand vs too LAG players. everyone feel free to watchNotice the line DN takes with a monster.
Someone, I think playing against Gus Hansen might be a bit different than playing against a 100NL loose-aggressive donk, there is no need to get tricky here.

#39 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:25 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:14 AM, said:

If you dont understand the point i was making, I cant help you
The ONLY point that I see you making in this whole thread is that the way to get more money from him when he's bluffing is to flat call the flop 3 bet and let him bluff the turn. Wow, novel idea. I don't know how nobody thought of this. Or maybe people thought of this, weighed it against all of the other action in the hand and figured that the chances that he was bluffing were small compared to the chances that he had actually flopped a large hand here because of how many aggressive actions he has taken.This seems to be your favorite line to take with your big hands because I've seen it in like probably 2 or 3 other hands you've posted.Can you give me a range of hands that we:1. Raise with preflop2. Call a preflop reraise (yeah, it's a minraise, so it's probably the same range as #1)3. Checkraise an AJT flop with4. CALL a 3-bet on the AJT flop from the preflop reraiser OOP.How many hands can we have there? How many hands can he expect to get us to fold after calling the flop there?

#40 Acid_Knight

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:26 AM

View Postfdsafdsa, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 7:23 AM, said:

Someone, I think playing against Gus Hansen might be a bit different than playing against a 100NL loose-aggressive donk, there is no need to get tricky here.
I figured someone else would point out that the caliber of play is slightly different at 100NL compared to 300/600NL.We're not Daniel Negreanu. The villain is not Gus Hansen. This isn't High Stakes Poker.Also, DN is IN POSITION in this hand. Do you realize how much that changes?




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