12 replies to this topic

[akishore]

example 1:folded to me on the button, i raise it with K-K. both blinds call.flop comes 2-3-8, check, check, bet, call, call.turn comes 7, check, check, bet, call, call.river comes J, bet, call, raise, three-bet, fold, call. villian turns over J-7 for two pair.example 2:one limper, i raise with A-A in the cutoff. only the limper calls.flop comes Q-9-5, check, bet, call.turn comes 2, check, bet, call.river comes 8, bet, raise, three-bet, call. villian turns over 7-6 for a straight.i've been raising both for value and for aggression, but when i think about it, i'm wondering if those situations are calling situations. if they're bluffing, they're not going to call a raise--the only times they'll call is when they improve to something better than just my pair, but something still somewhat weak, and every other hand they would bet out with, they will three-bet with.should i be calling in those types of hands?aseem

[Vade]

Hmm...raising on the river unimproved is never a good idea.Just call their bets. Clearly they're not afraid of your pair.That's four bets that you lost. Imo value raises on the river are dangerous

[Absolute]

if i read the lines correctly you played them rightsucks when it happens

[mark33f]

Yeah,I think you played it right, and besides in the long run you will win this pots more than you will lose, so dont worry about it

[akishore]

well, i'm just wondering if an opponent who has been passive throughout the hand suddenly wakes up means that he has improved. if he's improved, chances are, he can beat my overpair. the times will be few and far between that he bluffs here--and even then, a raise on my part will have no EV.i'm not saying that aggression is bad and that the passive call is better in these situations, but i'm just comparing it to something like checking behind when you have a marginal/good hand and sense that your opponent is on a draw--a bet accomplishes nothing since they'll fold, but you lose two bets when they raise you and you're beat.aseem

[RonBurgundy]

you're right, when passive players wake up on the river, they're usually beating an overpair. Raising i don't mind, 3 betting is not good.

[akishore]

RonBurgundy said:

you're right, when passive players wake up on the river, they're usually beating an overpair. Raising i don't mind, 3 betting is not good.

well, i never three-bet. both hands were basically heads-up at the river. i had been controlling the action until the river, when the passive player bet. i raised, and THEY threebet, but i get your point.aseem

[DCWildcat]

This situation seems to depend a lot on your read on the player to me. Obviously, morons calling down on gutshots and bottom pairs (or calling bets with those hands preflop regardless) are hard to predict. I was rather surprised; I thought they'd be holding ultra-slowplayed sets. Seems to me the board looks unthreatening, but that raise would make me call at a >.25/50 table, and reraise at a lower one.

[UnionGuy]

I'm about to dust off my limit game, so I've been thinking about this type of situation a lot. It seems to me that players will often stay until the river and then fold when they miss their hand. Of course, we want this. In the long run, these flush, straight, and two-pair chasers will pay us off.However, I doubt if many players at the .50/1, 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 tables will cold call and then attempt a stone bluff on the river. Particularly if you've been showing strength throughout the hand and they are just passively calling. If there is some kind of obvious drawing hand, like a straight or flush, that gets made on the river, I will just assume the other guy has it.If the flush or straight comes on the board, is it better to just check and then fold to the bet? You're saving yourself 2 big bets in the process. Harder said then done, but it's important to remember all the times you've gotten bets out of people that folded on the river.

[akishore]

UnionGuy said:

I'm about to dust off my limit game, so I've been thinking about this type of situation a lot. It seems to me that players will often stay until the river and then fold when they miss their hand. Of course, we want this. In the long run, these flush, straight, and two-pair chasers will pay us off.However, I doubt if many players at the .50/1, 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 tables will cold call and then attempt a stone bluff on the river. Particularly if you've been showing strength throughout the hand and they are just passively calling. If there is some kind of obvious drawing hand, like a straight or flush, that gets made on the river, I will just assume the other guy has it.If the flush or straight comes on the board, is it better to just check and then fold to the bet? You're saving yourself 2 big bets in the process. Harder said then done, but it's important to remember all the times you've gotten bets out of people that folded on the river.

are you suggesting FOLDING in these situations?god no!i mean that is it worth raising if they're only going to call/reraise when you're beat, and they're only going to fold when they're bluffing and you have them beat anyway.never fold on the river for one bet--this isn't a game about making big laydowns. usually, you only have to be correct a small percentage of the time to justify calling.aseem

[BuzzWorthy]

Great post.I think the most important lesson to take away is how much we all need to pay attention to our opponents. When we are being aggressive and they are merely calling, and then all of a sudden they bet - it's time to wake up and realize you either were being slowplayed, or he caught something.I think you may be on to something about just calling the river with an overpair to an opponent who was passive but is now aggressive.River bets in limit are rarely bluffs - as you already mentioned, too often it is appropriate to call for one bet, meaning that a large percentage of the time the bluff will not work. I would assume he made something.Betting for value would make sense if the opponent checked in front of you, but since he showed aggression and bet, a raise is not a value bet. Also, when someone who has been passive is now showing aggression, an aggressive raise is not likely to scare him off.So... yeah, I think the situation you described might be a calling situation.

[rog]

One of the things I'm working on with regards to my river play is knowing when only a better hand will call me. In both your examples, unless you think someone is check/calling with top pair, you have to think the only hands that are going to call you are 2-pair, rivered trips or the straight.While I think it's possible a weaker hand might call you, I dont think it's 50% likely, so I'd check/call the river on both of these hands. Of course reads have to play into it.

[Abbaddabba]

You know you should've just called in hindsight, absent of any read on the player that would suggest otherwise. If what you're looking for is confirmation, i give my e-thumb's up.