15 replies to this topic

[archie]

First off thanks in advance for any help/tips you have to give. I've only been playing poker for a few months, but I dove straight in and I'm trying to improve my game (or lack thereof)I won a minitournament on Ultimate Bet that gave me a $100 TEC (Tournament Entry Chip) plus the entry fee. So I gave it my shot on Sunday.I ran into this hand, and I'd like some advice on how I could have played it to either maximize my $$ or minimize my losses:Unfortunately the exact hand history is on my laptop at home, and the history converter was down over the weekend. I'll post it here as best I can.Blinds have gone up to 50/100Hero is in middle position with about 4500 chipsBonehead is on the button with about 4500 chipsDeadDraw is in early position with about 3000 chipsHero has K (H), 9 (H)Hero raises to 300Bonehead callsDeadDraw callsFlop is 7 (H), 3 (D), 3 (H)DeadDraw raises to 500Hero Raises to 1000Bonehead pushes all inDeadDraw callsHero ?????????????Ok, my read on Bonehead is he's a pretty agressive player, always raises or calls. We've been playing about an hour, and both he and I have been beating up on the other players. DeadDraw caught someone all-in and sucked out a straight on the river so he's doing ok too.My feeling on Bonehead is that he has the other 3 with a high kicker. I think DeadDraw has a high pair. And Me...I have 4 hearts of my King high flush draw with two cards yet to come. I see a chance to take out two players and move up in the rankings. At the time, I was in 21st, just out of the money (places 5-20 payed $150, 1st was over $4000). I realize the odds are against me on the flop, but if I make my flush the odds reverse and I'm a heavy favorite.Should I just lay down here? Or do you like my flush draw against a set of 3s? I've been playing pretty tight up to this point and doing well (for me being a newb and all).

[cdddc75]

Calling all-in when you are way behind is terrible tournament play.I'm not even thrilled with the min raise on the flop with the second nut flush draw...

[archie]

cdddc75 said:

Calling all-in when you are way behind is terrible tournament play.I'm not even thrilled with the min raise on the flop with the second nut flush draw...

Yes, I was definitely chasing a hand there...Here's the turn:J (H)

[archie]

And the River:A (S)

[archie]

cdddc75 said:

Calling all-in when you are way behind is terrible tournament play.I'm not even thrilled with the min raise on the flop with the second nut flush draw...

You're absolutely right... here's how it went:I call the all-in and we all flip our cards:Hero: K9 heartsBonehead: A3 offsuitDeadDraw: KKTurn came J(h) giving me the flush to Boneheads set of 3s and DeadDraws Cowboys.Stinking River comes along with an Ace and gives Bonehead a full house. I went from "Uh-oh hope this works" to "hey, they had exactly what I thought" to "hey I made my flush" to "hey I'm a loser" in about 5 seconds :-)Lesson learned. I got way too aggressive way to early. I was doing well up until that point, but I dangled that flush in front of myself and went chasing it. Heck I even caught it :-) But all for naught.

[Big_Mercer]

You are getting enough pot odds there to call on a flush draw. The only questions are: "Are you sure you aren't up against a boat or a bigger flush draw?" and "Do you want to gamble?"But as for me, I would not have raised the flop. I would have either folded or called. Then, when the push comes you are back to the questions I posed.

[cdddc75]

Even worse than I thought. You were way behind and had fewer outs (10 to 8 ) to improve. The ace of hearts would have been the ultimate dagger in your back...giving you the nut flush and him the boat at the same time.Ouch.

[gobears]

Pre-flop is ok as you have a marginal hand - you might be able to take the blinds if no one calls but you get two callers.After the flop, I would fold. You're stuck in the middle between the initial better and another player who has an action behind you. All you have is the second nut flush draw and the board has already paired which makes it even worse.However, you raise which leaves you 3200 in chips - still in good shape. Then, both players go all-in. With two all-ins in front of you, you have a flush draw which might not even be good with the board pairing and the A of hearts still out there. Again, I would fold.

[archie]

cdddc75 said:

Even worse than I thought. You were way behind and had fewer outs (10 to 8 ) to improve. The ace of hearts would have been the ultimate dagger in your back...giving you the nut flush and him the boat at the same time.Ouch.

Yep...Ouch says it. Luckily the buy-in and entry fee were 'free' so it only cost me my pride and my shot at the money.I'll give it another go this week.

[slupo]

Bonehead went all in after a raise and a re-raise. The other play called the all in.With your hand, I definitely wouldn't have called. Especially since another player had you covered. This is your tournament life at stake. I wouldn't risk it on a flush draw. And you didn't even have the nut flush draw.

[dms26]

I don't like your chances at all on the flop, being one spot out of the money makes it even worse. With the board paired and so much action you have to assume someone has trips or a boat already. You put him on a 3 yet you went all in? He has a 35% to fill up plus he's already in the lead, the trips also counterfeit some of your outs. Huge mistake that close to the money even though its a "free" entry. You could have at least guaranteed yourself a little money by being patient. And you could have saved your chips for a spot where you have the lead, make playes pay to chase you, not the other way around.

[archie]

dms26 said:

I don't like your chances at all on the flop, being one spot out of the money makes it even worse. With the board paired and so much action you have to assume someone has trips or a boat already. You put him on a 3 yet you went all in? He has a 35% to fill up plus he's already in the lead, the trips also counterfeit some of your outs. Huge mistake that close to the money even though its a "free" entry. You could have at least guaranteed yourself a little money by being patient. And you could have saved your chips for a spot where you have the lead, make playes pay to chase you, not the other way around.

Good points, which I already knew but needed to hear from the experienced players in this forum. Lack of patience is the biggest hole in my game (that I can identify) and this just highlights it for me.On the positive side, I at least had good reads on my opponents and what they had, so I'm improving :-) (looking for a silver lining here).

[DCWildcat]

Agreed. With the 2nd nut flush draw, an all in and a called all in ahead of you, you should get out, especially since you put Bonehead on trip 3's (which eliminates a whopping 8 of your outs, from your overcards).More importantly, this hand would knock DeadDraw out and put you in the money.A good learning hand. Thank you for posting!Edit: Might want to mention the folds specifically; I thought it was a 3-handed game (granted that as my own dumb mistake). Since it's a full game, you probably shouldn't play that hand there, and definately shouldn't raise with it...

[dms26]

archie said:

dms26 said:

I don't like your chances at all on the flop, being one spot out of the money makes it even worse. With the board paired and so much action you have to assume someone has trips or a boat already. You put him on a 3 yet you went all in? He has a 35% to fill up plus he's already in the lead, the trips also counterfeit some of your outs. Huge mistake that close to the money even though its a "free" entry. You could have at least guaranteed yourself a little money by being patient. And you could have saved your chips for a spot where you have the lead, make playes pay to chase you, not the other way around.

Good points, which I already knew but needed to hear from the experienced players in this forum. Lack of patience is the biggest hole in my game (that I can identify) and this just highlights it for me.On the positive side, I at least had good reads on my opponents and what they had, so I'm improving :-) (looking for a silver lining here).

Haha, yeah you made the read. But that read should have told you to lay it down. Live n learn, GL next weekend. Don't chase flush draws when the board is paired, speaking from experience :cry:

[tskillz187]

fold preflop, fold very quicky postflop

[Wily]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the relative chip stacks of the three players involved. I'll take the devil's advocate position and say that, late in a tournament, getting all in with about ~26% chance of being best in the end and 3:1 pot odds is not horrible IF you can still survive in the tournament losing this all-in. If you were the big stack with, say 8,000 chips vs these chip stacks, then I'd say it's marginally correct to call with a chance of improving a lot in chip ranking (probably make you in top 3%) and still enough to survive into the money if you lose. In your case, it was an all for you - which you should NOT do in any tournament unless you are confident you have the best hand at a given point.