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Wsop Circuit Event - Final Table


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#1 monix

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:45 AM

This may be a thinly veiled brag post, but I sincerely want your input. I have not been around here much lately (I was busy with the sale in December of the company I ran), but I consider this my "poker home" and value your input.Here is the final table and chip counts:Seat 1 - Tom Schneider - Scottsdale, AZ - 422,000 chips (2007 WSOP Player of the Year)Seat 2 - Ben Sabrin - Atlanta, GA - 417,000 chipsSeat 3 - John Devia - West Palm, FL - 929,500 chipsSeat 4 - Giovanni Maracci - Brooksville, FL - 465,000 chipsSeat 5 - Jordan Rich - Portland, OR - 147,000 chips (Bracelet winner)Seat 6 - Mark Garner - Little Rock, AR - 213,500 chipsSeat 7 - Bart Tichelman - Atlanta, GA - 164,000 chipsSeat 8 - Donald Nicholson - Oak Ridge, TN - 325,000 chipsSeat 9 - Ryan Young - Torrance, CA - 521,000 chips (Bracelet winner – Darrel "Gigabet" Dicken called him the best player in the tournament)I start with and M of ~7.5, but when the next level starts in 7 minutes I will have been through the blinds and it will be down to 6.2.I am way out of my element. I’m in by winning a $550 Mega Satellite, guaranteed $25,000, and it unlikely I will ever be in this situation again - I might as well try and win, so I will have to chip-up.Specific Questions:Stealing- Hand selection? Any two in the SB? On the button or CO?- min-raise, standard raise or all-in?Do I limp any hands? If so which hands in which position?Premium hands- Take a “Kill Phil” approach and push or re-raise push (JJ+, AQ+)?- If I am pushing almost everything, do I try a limp/push with AA/KK?The two toughest players at the table will have position on me (Young and Schneider), and have the balls and chips to call a raise from the blinds and bet any flop, or re-raise me light pre-flop. AM I better off pushing any hand I intend to play pre-flop to negate their post-flop advantage? Does my M affect the answer, and if so, at what M level? (Ask me how I know after being abused by Schneider for 4 hours yesterday)Any other ideas or thoughts appreciated (content-less “TID” “GLGLGL” posts are not needed :club: )
Bart

#2 TravisG

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 05:37 AM

View Postmonix, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 1:45 PM, said:

Stealing- Hand selection? Any two in the SB? On the button or CO?- min-raise, standard raise or all-in?Do I limp any hands? If so which hands in which position?Premium hands- Take a “Kill Phil” approach and push or re-raise push (JJ+, AQ+)?- If I am pushing almost everything, do I try a limp/push with AA/KK?Any other ideas or thoughts appreciated (content-less “TID” “GLGLGL” posts are not needed :club: )
don't try stuff like limp/push here. people will just wonder what you're doing there. just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, people will recognize that you do this with close to any 2 and will pay off.hand selection with stealing depends on your reads on your opponents of course. easy steal from button against 2 tights in the blinds, dont try to steal with rags if donkeys have yet to act after you (your all in will be called by queen ten otherwise). try to use your table image the best way possible, if you didn't play a hand for a while, you might be able to steal easier at a higher blind level and so on. good lucktp/mm obv.

#3 navybuttons

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:51 AM

zomg, this is pretty big. i would block about 90% of the advice you read from people today before the tournament starts. i would say only listen to the tournament pros who have a VERY good idea of what they are doing. the equity difference between each decision will likely be at least +$5000 so i wouldn't take what some unknown and unproven player says without serious confirmation.i sincerely wish you the best of luck and hope you receive only good advice.
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#4 simo_8ball

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:59 AM

Don't call.

#5 Canuckickstan

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 08:06 AM

Do something crazy (twirl seatcover?) to get some airtime !!Seriously, best of luck. Will be on the virtual rail !!
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#6 gobears

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 08:33 AM

GL Bart! Well done!I wouldn't limp any hands with your M - Raise/fold pre. You're almost at the stage where you can push pre when you decide to play. M of 5-7 is where I start to look at doing that. Also, it leaves no FE for any players behind you to snap you off. Look for two cards that are playable, not just any junk. Look for first in vigorish if you're going to play unless you have a very strong hand. The other two shorties are on your right so they may be shoving light (you'll have to watch them closely).Finally, your skill brought you to this point - trust your instincts, take your time; no need to hurry any decisions.
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#7 jethrodull

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 08:53 AM

maybe Info Bob can put you in touch with Daniel, 1 day protege or something....best of luck to you and let us know how it goes downJ
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#8 SlapStick

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 08:58 AM

As much as he is a pompous ass, Helmuth always says you cant win the final table until the final 3. There are some pretty good players in that lineup but try keep your cool and let other people explode. Dont force anything.Congrats, its a brilliant achievement
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#9 Mercury69

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 10:58 AM

Seeing as your M is so low...Never call, just raise or foldOpen shove ATC from SB-cutoffShove from UTG/EP with middle to high suited connectors, 99+and any 2 paint connectors.To get any higher, you're going to have to get seriously lucky off one of these guys and, if the aggresion factor is as high as it looks, you don't want to be diddling around post-flop.
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#10 looshle

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 12:48 PM

What are blinds going to start at?Fwiw, you may be short but not as short s you think, thereason being is that 160 is a huge chunk of just about everyones stack so no matter if its 20bbs or 8bbs, you have tons of fold equity. A lot of people arent gonna call a button push with A3 or KT for 2/3 of their stack no matter how big your stack is in relation to the blinds/antes.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

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#11 Wandigo

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:04 PM

View PostMercury69, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 1:58 PM, said:

Seeing as your M is so low...Never call, just raise or foldOpen shove ATC from SB-cutoffShove from UTG/EP with middle to high suited connectors, 99+and any 2 paint connectors.To get any higher, you're going to have to get seriously lucky off one of these guys and, if the aggresion factor is as high as it looks, you don't want to be diddling around post-flop.
I think for now with an M of 7.5, ATC is too wide of a range to be open shoving from sb/co. If it folds to me and I have J2o, I'm certainly mucking it and waiting for a better spot. But like everyone else said, I wouldn't be limping anything because the bigger stacks are going to just walk all over you. No need to force anything right away, it doesn't look like you're TOO short stacked where you feel like you have to get it all-in within the first orbit.You are, however, in good restealing range with your stack size. Any reads on the players prior to the FT? Who tends to fold their blinds to raises? Who are the aggro players making position raises? Have you seen them fold to reshoves? An m of 7.5 is a perfect range for reshoving on someone with a less than premium hand (most pairs, hands like 78s, TJs, etc..) and even if you get called, there's a good chance you're live and probably just in a 60/40 situation.Like someone said, take most of this info with a grain of salt, you got this far by playing your game and trusting your instincts, so keep doing that and you should be fine.Good luck!

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#12 Sheiky

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:14 PM

Daniel has a tell on Jordan Rich apparently, not sure if it's proper ettiquette to tell another player though.From what i've heard he's a very aggressive internet guy who makes a fair few moves.That's so awesome that you're playing with Tom Schneider.

#13 mtdesmoines

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:32 PM

View PostSlapStick, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 8:58 AM, said:

try keep your cool and let other people explode. Dont force anything.

View PostMercury69, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

Never call, just raise or fold..... if the aggresion factor is as high as it looks, you don't want to be diddling around post-flop.

View PostWandigo, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 1:04 PM, said:

I think for now with an M of 7.5, ATC is too wide of a range to be open shoving from sb/co. If it folds to me and I have J2o, I'm certainly mucking it and waiting for a better spot. But like everyone else said, I wouldn't be limping anything because the bigger stacks are going to just walk all over you. ... Like someone said, take most of this info with a grain of salt, you got this far by playing your game and trusting your instincts, so keep doing that and you should be fine.Good luck!
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#14 monix

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 03:52 PM

View Postlooshle, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

What are blinds going to start at?
I am UTG+1 when we start; blinds at 8,000/4,000/1000. When the next level starts in 7 minutes they will be 10,000/5,000/1,000.I agree with having enough of a stack to hurt someone...the question is in 7 minutes I'll be down to 148,000 (assuming I don't win any of the next 5 hands), be on the button with an M of 6.2...do I shove ATC if folded to me on the button and/or CO?
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#15 monix

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:05 PM

View PostSheiky, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 1:14 PM, said:

Daniel has a tell on Jordan Rich apparently, not sure if it's proper ettiquette to tell another player though.From what i've heard he's a very aggressive internet guy who makes a fair few moves.
Jordan is very aggressive and very courageous. He raised virtually EVERY hand when it was folded to him. I have now played about three hours with him on my immediate right (which was a bummer – I then had Schneider for two hours on my immediate right…the good news is the Jordan doubled me up once and Tom doubled me up twice), and I don't have enough experience to pick up tells. Last night he told me he was going to play Day 1b of the WPT event today, which told me that he might not even show up tomorrow. I just saw him in the lobby - he decided NOT to play the WPT event, when indicates he will bring his Triple A game - since he has position on me, it is very unlikely it will EVER be folded to me.What is my re-stealing range in this case?
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#16 looshle

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:05 PM

View Postmonix, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 4:52 PM, said:

I am UTG+1 when we start; blinds at 8,000/4,000/1000. When the next level starts in 7 minutes they will be 10,000/5,000/1,000.I agree with having enough of a stack to hurt someone...the question is in 7 minutes I'll be down to 148,000 (assuming I don't win any of the next 5 hands), be on the button with an M of 6.2...do I shove ATC if folded to me on the button and/or CO?
I'm not shoving ATC but I'm shoving all hands with showdown value. I really think the concept of M loses some its value at a FT when most of the table is short stacked. Keep a good note on chip stacks behind you when shoving, the more you can hurt them the more FE you have. Try to be as patient as you can and hopefully the cards will cooperate. While there is a lot of money to be made with each pay jump, play for first. These chances are few and far between, don't hold back. Make this a life changing experience.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

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#17 monix

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:17 PM

View Postlooshle, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 4:05 PM, said:

I'm not shoving ATC but I'm shoving all hands with showdown value. I really think the concept of M loses some its value at a FT when most of the table is short stacked. Keep a good note on chip stacks behind you when shoving, the more you can hurt them the more FE you have. Try to be as patient as you can and hopefully the cards will cooperate. While there is a lot of money to be made with each pay jump, play for first. These chances are few and far between, don't hold back. Make this a life changing experience.
Thanks for the advice. While I'd like the $412K first prize, this money is not life changing for me, so I want to win....I am not thinking about the money.With Tom and Jordan on my right, I'll be quickly forced to considersome re-steal attempts...I have decent FE with Rich as I have him covered (for the moment - I predict he'll have me covered in 10 hands) and somewhat less over Tom, but he is further away right now and a lot will change between now and when he is in steal position.
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#18 monix

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:25 PM

View PostWandigo, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 1:04 PM, said:

I think for now with an M of 7.5, ATC is too wide of a range to be open shoving from sb/co. If it folds to me and I have J2o, I'm certainly mucking it and waiting for a better spot. But like everyone else said, I wouldn't be limping anything because the bigger stacks are going to just walk all over you. No need to force anything right away, it doesn't look like you're TOO short stacked where you feel like you have to get it all-in within the first orbit.You are, however, in good restealing range with your stack size. Any reads on the players prior to the FT? Who tends to fold their blinds to raises? Who are the aggro players making position raises? Have you seen them fold to reshoves? An m of 7.5 is a perfect range for reshoving on someone with a less than premium hand (most pairs, hands like 78s, TJs, etc..) and even if you get called, there's a good chance you're live and probably just in a 60/40 situation.Like someone said, take most of this info with a grain of salt, you got this far by playing your game and trusting your instincts, so keep doing that and you should be fine.Good luck!
I played with Ryan for a couple of hours day 1 - very solid player (He was on my immediate right too...I see a trend here). I folded QQ to his KK and preserved my Chip leader status at the end of round 6 and I think I can steal from him.I played a bunch with Tom and Jordan and very little with the other players.
Bart

#19 PrtyPSux

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:34 PM

So I might be a little late for the reply but here's my 2 cents:I think you're selling yourself short, you're probably in the top 2 or 3 players at the table just knowing that you understand some math and stuff....Tom Schneider is a limit player, he's a donkish in nl, super calling station so don't bluff him, only Vbet him postflop, he'll probably overvalue hands preflop too. Ryan is good, but I don't know too much about him, he hangs out with the asian crew a lot so I'd assume he plays kinda like them (danny wong, steve sung, Tran etc) If so he'll avoid preflop situations as much as possible with your stack vs his I'm sure you can resteal on him as he'll probably open light. If you resteal on him once or twice though he might make a huge PF mistake and call u with A10 or something so don't get too loose with him, he'll also probably play very tight with a short stack and do weird stuff like open limp with 10bb's and stuff. I don't know much about Jordan, he's octavianC online, I asked a well respected online player how jordan played and he responded "Bad.........aggressive bad" so hands like AJ go up in value, restealing with hands like 33 probably go down in value as you'll get called with a wider range of overs and small pairs.... slowplaying big hands is probably WAY + EV in general with your stack. As a general rule you should play super tight, at a live FT people are going to play way too loose to be any good....with 5 or 6 left theres usually one or two with all the chips but if you have 20bb's thats more than enough to win the tourney, their opening ranges 5 handed go way up and they start opening stuff like A4 or 56s so restealing with any 2 in some spots is huge as they wont want to double anyone up at that point. Short handed is when you get really aggro and use your nit image to chip up. Just be aware of your image live is the best advice I can give, if you've been re-shoving a lot re-shove with your big hands, if you've been playing really tight slowplay most big hands. Whatever you do don't come in thinking they're way better than you. They're really not that good, and the only really good player there probably isn't good at preflop poker which is the main thing at FT's. That'll be 5% of your winnings sir, you can mail a check or Ship it to PrtyPsux online... GL.PS I'm trying to get ahold of one of Ryan's good friends, maybe I can get some info on him for you in a bit, he's not answering tho.

#20 Gallo

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 06:12 PM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Monday, January 21st, 2008, 7:34 PM, said:

So I might be a little late for the reply but here's my 2 cents:I think you're selling yourself short, you're probably in the top 2 or 3 players at the table just knowing that you understand some math and stuff....Tom Schneider is a limit player, he's a donkish in nl, super calling station so don't bluff him, only Vbet him postflop, he'll probably overvalue hands preflop too. Ryan is good, but I don't know too much about him, he hangs out with the asian crew a lot so I'd assume he plays kinda like them (danny wong, steve sung, Tran etc) If so he'll avoid preflop situations as much as possible with your stack vs his I'm sure you can resteal on him as he'll probably open light. If you resteal on him once or twice though he might make a huge PF mistake and call u with A10 or something so don't get too loose with him, he'll also probably play very tight with a short stack and do weird stuff like open limp with 10bb's and stuff. I don't know much about Jordan, he's octavianC online, I asked a well respected online player how jordan played and he responded "Bad.........aggressive bad" so hands like AJ go up in value, restealing with hands like 33 probably go down in value as you'll get called with a wider range of overs and small pairs.... slowplaying big hands is probably WAY + EV in general with your stack. As a general rule you should play super tight, at a live FT people are going to play way too loose to be any good....with 5 or 6 left theres usually one or two with all the chips but if you have 20bb's thats more than enough to win the tourney, their opening ranges 5 handed go way up and they start opening stuff like A4 or 56s so restealing with any 2 in some spots is huge as they wont want to double anyone up at that point. Short handed is when you get really aggro and use your nit image to chip up. Just be aware of your image live is the best advice I can give, if you've been re-shoving a lot re-shove with your big hands, if you've been playing really tight slowplay most big hands. Whatever you do don't come in thinking they're way better than you. They're really not that good, and the only really good player there probably isn't good at preflop poker which is the main thing at FT's. That'll be 5% of your winnings sir, you can mail a check or Ship it to PrtyPsux online... GL.PS I'm trying to get ahold of one of Ryan's good friends, maybe I can get some info on him for you in a bit, he's not answering tho.
Very good advice. And loooool on the 5%. :club:
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