23 replies to this topic

[DanielNegreanu]

Background: Very uncommon to see players call raises in position, normally every hand is three bet, but this one wasn't. Usually the players that don't three bet are not the best players. The player in the big blind is a pretty wild player who went on a big run online but is now crashing back to Earth and has been losing. The questionable aspect of this hand is on the flop. The goal with this hand is to maximize your profit on the hand obviously:PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) 6, 6, 3 (4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG folds, CO calls, Hero calls.Turn: (7.25 BB) 2 (3 players)BB bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, CO calls.River: (13.25 BB) 7 (3 players)BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls.Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[navybuttons]

i think i play the same. once you call the first bet, you have to call the second one. if you call the first one, and then raise the second one, it's never a free card play and BB rarely leads a blank turn. if we raise the first bet it's going to be tough for BB and UTG to peel with just overs.standard i think.CO must have had like TT.

[gfdsa146]

Quote

PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) 6, 6, 3 (4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG folds, CO calls, Hero calls. - I think the problem is hereTurn: (7.25 BB) 2 (3 players)BB bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, CO calls.River: (13.25 BB) 7 (3 players)BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls.Final Pot: 16.25 BB

alright, keep in mind that I don't ever play LHE. Ever. So you can use my post as an "This is a common misconception amongst you NLHE close-minded idiots who do nothing but practice your all-in motions all day" example.It would just make sense to raise it again when the CO calls the 2nd bet instead of smooth calling like you did. If you raise it, I think CO gets like 14.50 to 1 and then BB donk gets even better - point is, they're not going to fold to your raise and more money is going into the pot. If the reason you smooth called was to disguise your hand, I don't think you have much to worry about there. 1) If you smooth call the flop, your hand looks like a draw. 2) If you raise the flop, your hand looks like a 6. Either way, you get action if draws hit or if draws miss (due to the enormous river pot-odds villians will get on river). The only difference between the 1st and 2nd option is that the 2nd option gets more money in on the flop, so value is maximized if you take option 2. Factor in the fact that BB is donkish and will probably not even understand that you are representing a big hand on the flop by raising, I think raising it is the best way to get more money.

[CoolHandLaw]

gfdsa146, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 10:26 AM, said:

alright, keep in mind that I don't ever play LHE. Ever. So you can use my post as an "This is a common misconception amongst you NLHE close-minded idiots who do nothing but practice your all-in motions all day" example.It would just make sense to raise it again when the CO calls the 2nd bet instead of smooth calling like you did. If you raise it, I think CO gets like 14.50 to 1 and then BB donk gets even better - point is, they're not going to fold to your raise and more money is going into the pot. If the reason you smooth called was to disguise your hand, I don't think you have much to worry about there. 1) If you smooth call the flop, your hand looks like a draw. 2) If you raise the flop, your hand looks like a 6. Either way, you get action if draws hit or if draws miss (due to the enormous river pot-odds villians will get on river). The only difference between the 1st and 2nd option is that the 2nd option gets more money in on the flop, so value is maximized if you take option 2. Factor in the fact that BB is donkish and will probably not even understand that you are representing a big hand on the flop by raising, I think raising it is the best way to get more money.

but by raising the flop, will hero lose bets on the turn when he raises? a flop raise will effectively means hero leads the turn and the CO and BB possibly just calling. However, I do suppose you should ask yourself whether or not you believe one of them is on a draw? If so, I'd go with the line of raising the flop. Punish the chaser by jamming the pot and since the hands are usually 3-bet anyways might as well keep that line open. Based on the background info, it doensn't sound like CO will fold the flop if they have an overpair and the BB is tilting anyways so they'll come along for the ride. If they hit their draw, even more money in the pot. You could raise the flop and hope you get raised on the turn when leading out?

[navybuttons]

CoolHandLaw, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 11:00 AM, said:

You could raise the flop and hope you get raised on the turn when leading out?

we're not leading the turn. we'll be last to act. so if we have the lead in order to get raised on the turn we'd have to assume we get check-raised or that someone leads and we get to raise. the problem is that the only hands that c/r on the turn are either gonna be a 6 (which we can be 96% sure the CO doesn't have IMO) or a draw that hits (45 or the hearts). so in order to get check-raised on the turn when we have the lead, the perfect card is gonna have to come off (like BB being on a draw and hitting, or him having a 6 and the draw bricking).i didn't like the way the K3 was played, and i didn't especially like the way the 55 hand was played, but i think this one is good.

[CoolHandLaw]

navybuttons, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 12:07 PM, said:

we're not leading the turn. we'll be last to act. so if we have the lead in order to get raised on the turn we'd have to assume we get check-raised or that someone leads and we get to raise. the problem is that the only hands that c/r on the turn are either gonna be a 6 (which we can be 96% sure the CO doesn't have IMO) or a draw that hits (45 or the hearts). so in order to get check-raised on the turn when we have the lead, the perfect card is gonna have to come off (like BB being on a draw and hitting, or him having a 6 and the draw bricking).i didn't like the way the K3 was played, and i didn't especially like the way the 55 hand was played, but i think this one is good.

sorry, i guess i wasn't being clear. I usually dont type what i think and just assume it gets into print.I was thinking that if we raise the flop. it would go call call. (But there is the potential that the flop gets capped) If not...On the turn I was thinking it would go check. check. bet. *call. raise* or whatever action to follow after we get checked to on the turn. Lets say the flush or straight hits, then we'll likely see 3 bets on the turn in addition to the 3 bets on the flop.Otherwise, I see what you're saying. But I dont think we can eliminate the flush or the six (its about as likely at K6 here, in fact, more likely than the K3 you put him on) and if we believe that is out there, we might as well raise the flop and induce more action.

[navybuttons]

CoolHandLaw, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

Otherwise, I see what you're saying. But I dont think we can eliminate the flush or the six (its about as likely at K6 here, in fact, more likely than the K3 you put him on) and if we believe that is out there, we might as well raise the flop and induce more action.

sorry, the K3 was from another hand daniel posted, and that's what i was commenting on.you assume it would go call call if we raised, but that's because you know BB is coming along. give BB and UTG a random hand each. how many of those hands can call 1 bet and how many call 2? i bet there's 3x as many hands that can call 1 bet. but say we just call and the BB and UTG fold (extremely unlikely IMO that they both fold getting 10:1) then CO still has to lead the turn with whatever he has and we get to pop him there. on the flop we have more of a pull type hand than a rammer and jammer IMO.

[KowboyKoop]

I think if we had called on the flop and then raised the BB's check-raise...I think we lose action on later streets. On that board, a smooth call and then raise on the same street just screams at least a 6........maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was played perfect.

[Poker Addict]

My thought with BB being a wild player is that you could have probably got him to cap the betting with a medium hand or even a 6 on the flop. But you would have probably lost the CO to two raises there because he would have known his overpair was no good. You could get really lucky and the BB has K6 or hits his flush. Again, by the way it's played I think the CO was very leery of that pair on the flop.So even if the betting is capped by the BB on the flop, if you lose the CO you will end up costing yourself value. Wild man slows down after your raise on the turn and your bet on the river by just calling. I don't see a better way to play this.If you get BB to cap and lose CO after his first bet (assuming BB bets/calls on the turn and checks/calls on the river) - you end up with 13.75 BB (if my math is correct)By keeping the CO in for the ride, you end up with 16.75 in the pot.Also, if my math is correct, the way DN played he only risked 5 BB. The alternate scenario he would have risked 5.5 BB. Much better return the way it was played.If that doesn't make sense or if my math is off, let me know. I am supposed to be working.

[Zach6668]

I don't cold call a lot preflop, but I can see the merit in this.I play the rest of the hand exactly the same.

[jmkiser]

I've been wondering about the realistic value of cold calling for set value. I know limping is a profitable play with at least 4 players or so that are likely to see the flop.But a cold-call 6 handed? I guess DN would be the guy good enough to know how to play that for profit.How do we justify it in shlhe?The rest of the hand was played to maximum value in my opinion.

[Zach6668]

jmkiser, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

I've been wondering about the realistic value of cold calling for set value. I know limping is a profitable play with at least 4 players or so that are likely to see the flop.But a cold-call 6 handed?

Honestly, if you were never the first cold caller, in a hand where there's never going to be more than 4 players seeing the flop, you're not giving anything up.

[7s7c]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 9:02 AM, said:

Background: Very uncommon to see players call raises in position, normally every hand is three bet, but this one wasn't. Usually the players that don't three bet are not the best players. The player in the big blind is a pretty wild player who went on a big run online but is now crashing back to Earth and has been losing. The questionable aspect of this hand is on the flop. The goal with this hand is to maximize your profit on the hand obviously:PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) 6, 6, 3 (4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG folds, CO calls, Hero calls.Turn: (7.25 BB) 2 (3 players)BB bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, CO calls.River: (13.25 BB) 7 (3 players)BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls.Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Standard? BB doesn't lead the turn if we show strength on the flop.

[Actuary]

just wondering, how would we play KhJh on that flop?Would raising the 2nd time around be plausible (with a FD that is)?

[Bubba83]

I play it the same, this hand is not as interesting to me or as controversial compared to the others you have posted before this one.Next time though I'd hope if it's just a flop question that you don't post any of the action after that decision because it is very apparent that playing it the way you did on the flop probably maximized value based on results.If you still want to show the other portions of the hand or ask for further discussion on the turn for example, you can always post just the action to the flop first, create discussion, then when you are satisfied with the dicussion that has taken place, you can post the turn, and so forth.

[Poker Addict]

Bubba83, on Tuesday, January 15th, 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

I play it the same, this hand is not as interesting to me or as controversial compared to the others you have posted before this one.Next time though I'd hope if it's just a flop question that you don't post any of the action after that decision because it is very apparent that playing it the way you did on the flop probably maximized value based on results.If you still want to show the other portions of the hand or ask for further discussion on the turn for example, you can always post just the action to the flop first, create discussion, then when you are satisfied with the dicussion that has taken place, you can post the turn, and so forth.

I think his reason for posting this was to demonstrate how to get maximum value throughout this hand. I could be wrong.

[DanielNegreanu]

The reason I posted the hand was because it was part of a theme from other hands where there was discussion about maximizing value in these games. The way these guys approach playing limit hold'em, letting them have the lead so you can pop them on the turn while keeping others in between often gets you more bets than revealing strength on the flop. Obviously it depends on the opponent, but most of these guys don't disappoint when it comes to following through with a bet.

[craiger]

My first instinct on this flop would be to re-raise, but as Daniel said that reveals the strength of your hand and takes the lead away from the BB...in which case him and the CO would probably check to you on the turn...which probably means you only get in 3 big bets on the turn. If you just call on the flop, it hides the strength of your hand, keeps the lead with the BB...in which case he will likely lead out again on the turn...and you can trap them both on the turn, getting in 6 big bets. I play it the same.

[Zach6668]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, January 18th, 2008, 2:02 PM, said:

The reason I posted the hand was because it was part of a theme from other hands where there was discussion about maximizing value in these games. The way these guys approach playing limit hold'em, letting them have the lead so you can pop them on the turn while keeping others in between often gets you more bets than revealing strength on the flop. Obviously it depends on the opponent, but most of these guys don't disappoint when it comes to following through with a bet.

I agree 10000000000% with this.I find it very interesting to watch a game like LHE evolve over a very long period.Years ago, the game was mostly passive, and the way to dominate was to be aggressive.Even the worst fish in the 100/200 games know enough about poker from watching TV to know that they need to be aggressive.This shifts the optimal/winning strategy to one that exploits these tendencies.In a few years from now, it wouldn't surprise me if it went back to how it was 10 years ago.I make soooooo much money by simply letting these bet monkeys spew chips into pots. It's fantastic.

[Mattnxtc]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, January 18th, 2008, 11:02 AM, said:

The reason I posted the hand was because it was part of a theme from other hands where there was discussion about maximizing value in these games. The way these guys approach playing limit hold'em, letting them have the lead so you can pop them on the turn while keeping others in between often gets you more bets than revealing strength on the flop. Obviously it depends on the opponent, but most of these guys don't disappoint when it comes to following through with a bet.

Preflop would be the only real close decision mainly b/c with the low pairs your really having to play fit or fold a lot of the time. The flop leads to a lot of interesting thoughts: 1. Even if you raise, the BB would be getting 11.5/2 and could basically call with any draw which is great for you imo. The raise would have almost zero protection if you had a weaker made hand vs a draw so overall its not exactly a profitable move. 2. The other option is how DN played which is probably becoming more of the standard nowadays. Raising on this kind of board doesnt gain you value as you want to keep the two face cards and overpairs in the hand. You dont want to raise to protect your hand since you have a monster that you want people to hit any draws they are on.