39 replies to this topic

[David_Nicoson]

Are we trying to imply to the villain here that we might have a king? Isn't the gig up when we check the river?

[NoBBiR]

I think you're advocating for a raise on the turn so that you'll be able to check the hand down (with the added chance to taking down the pot), at least from what I read?I always run this play, but I only do it in position if I'm worried about getting the hand to end quickly and cheaply. Against a good opponent, he's usually going to bet the river if you check/raise a drawy turn, and then check the river OOP. I know I'd fire just about everything in my range. I'd be fairly sure if you had a king or something big, that you wouldn't risk a check down on the river.

[Acid_Knight]

David_Nicoson, on Sunday, January 13th, 2008, 7:12 PM, said:

Are we trying to imply to the villain here that we might have a king? Isn't the gig up when we check the river?

Read my post, which combined with DN's original read, explain why it will probably work for him to check the river.I think that a c/r has to be a legit fear and that a draw often makes up a lot of the villain's range and there would be more value for DN to let the villain bluff the river than there would for DN to fire the river after checking the turn.

[Dictius]

Where does it say anything about an ante in the hand history? Did the converter mess up? How did we end up with 680 in the pot on the flop?Raise to 300 + SB (50) + BB call (300) = 650, so there's an ante of 3 per player?

[David_Nicoson]

Acid_Knight, on Sunday, January 13th, 2008, 10:24 PM, said:

Read my post, which combined with DN's original read, explain why it will probably work for him to check the river.

I read them. Does DN actually play a king like that? Do you?

[Temporary Nuts]

David_Nicoson, on Sunday, January 13th, 2008, 10:36 PM, said:

I read them. Does DN actually play a king like that? Do you?

I think it's pretty transparent that neither player has a king...once the opponent flats the turn he's telegraphed to DN he doesn't have one... so unless we want to run a bluff on this river why continue with the facade?

[ROBBBIGG]

If we're villain holding a K:Isn't it possible DN is holding a heart draw, a straight draw, or a combo draw? If we're holding a King as villain, shouldn't we be betting the turn?If we're not holding a K:If we do call the turn check raise, and see DN checking the river, it's so unlikely DN has a King. If we do have AA/QQ, we're so likely to have DN beat given the way he played, but we might get him to call a bet if he has a J. So, if we have a Full House, King, Aces, or Queens, we should be betting. We might be betting with a stronger jack, but we might just be better off checking behind in case DN has AA/QQ/AJ. What else are we betting with on the river as villain that DN beats? Q10? No ones opening a lesser jack, right? Acid_Knight, can you help me with my reasoning above? Are we expecting villain to be betting a hand on the river we beat?

[Acid_Knight]

ROBBBIGG, on Sunday, January 13th, 2008, 7:59 PM, said:

If we do call the turn check raise, and see DN checking the river, it's so unlikely DN has a King. If we do have AA/QQ, we're so likely to have DN beat given the way he played, but we might get him to call a bet if he has a J. So, if we have a Full House, King, Aces, or Queens, we should be betting. We might be betting with a stronger jack, but we might just be better off checking behind in case DN has AA/QQ/AJ. What else are we betting with on the river as villain that DN beats? Q10? No ones opening a lesser jack, right? Acid_Knight, can you help me with my reasoning above? Are we expecting villain to be betting a hand on the river we beat?

I think the villain shows down almost all of his range that has any showdown value here. When DN c/rs the turn, he's most likely got a king, a draw or air. It's pretty unconventional to c/r the turn here with the 2 pair like he did. I think that when the river comes, the villain will figure this out and when it's checked to him, he'll bet a K if he has one, which seems unlikely give then action, and he'll consider betting his missed draws.I think a lot of this play hinges on how DN perceives his opponent and visa versa.To answer David Nicoson, no, I'd never play a King like that, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't from time to time in order to possibly showdown weaker holdings and balance ranges and things of that kind. But, if I did have a weaker king, like K9 or something like that, I just might check the river because I'd figure that he's about as likely to have a busted draw or a better hand than he is to have a weaker hand (like 2 pair) that'd call the bet.The play is pretty thin and read dependent either way IMO.

[David_Nicoson]

Acid_Knight, on Sunday, January 13th, 2008, 11:23 PM, said:

To answer David Nicoson, no, I'd never play a King like that, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't from time to time in order to possibly showdown weaker holdings and balance ranges and things of that kind. But, if I did have a weaker king, like K9 or something like that, I just might check the river because I'd figure that he's about as likely to have a busted draw or a better hand than he is to have a weaker hand (like 2 pair) that'd call the bet.The play is pretty thin and read dependent either way IMO.

If the hero (holding a king) thinks that the villain's range has a significant draw component, then the turn check raise should be much bigger, imho.

[DanielNegreanu]

Some of you got it really well. The idea behind making a relatively small check-raise on the turn is that A) It looks like I want to be calledB) It allows ME to decide the price I want to pay to pay this hand offC) It helps me find out if he has anything at allD) If he puts me on a bluff he may call me with a worse handE) If he is drawing, I'm making him pay a little more The reason it's even less likely that my opponent will bet a marginally better hand than mine on the river is because of the draw heavy board. If he puts me on a busted draw, why would be bet the river? Why do some of you rule out the idea that I could play a King this way? Surely you guys aren't robots are you! The fact is, his check on the flop looks slightly dangerous and for me to check-raise after he bets the turn shows even more significant strength. This is a play I use quite often against better players actually. They don't know that I'm shutting down on the river so before deciding to call the turn they also have to consider calling a large river bet. Lastly, I'm not necessarily committed to folding the river against a lot of players. In fact, checking the river to an aggressive bluffer could win me more bets when he decides I'm weak and tries to take it away from me, figuring we both may have had the draw.My Opponent had As Qs

[Poker Addict]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 10:13 AM, said:

Why do some of you rule out the idea that I could play a King this way? Surely you guys aren't robots are you! The fact is, his check on the flop looks slightly dangerous and for me to check-raise after he bets the turn shows even more significant strength. This is a play I use quite often against better players actually. They don't know that I'm shutting down on the river so before deciding to call the turn they also have to consider calling a large river bet. Lastly, I'm not necessarily committed to folding the river against a lot of players. In fact, checking the river to an aggressive bluffer could win me more bets when he decides I'm weak and tries to take it away from me, figuring we both may have had the draw.My Opponent had As Qs

Daniel... I was playing this hand through in my mind the way I would if I incorporated your check raise technique. But I am wondering, I don't put him on a K either and possible a stronger J is the only hand I can think beats us on the river. So why not try to fire again on the river to chase him off AJ or something along those lines by representing the K? That way he folds his busted draw, maybe any J and we don't have to showdown our hand. Can you let me know why it would be wrong for me to do that?BTW... Thank you for posting these and all of the veterans for their analysis. It's one of the things that makes this the best poker forum I have found.

[francis9]

To a stupid aggrodonk like me your turn c/r followed by a check on the River looks so weak. And i think i would try to bluff. And i definitly would valuebet AJ or better.I simply couldnt believe you have a big hand here? If you had i would be really surprised.As i thought about it i think your play is really smart. It looks like a trap, but in fact you are protecting your weakness and forcing your opponent to polarize his range on the river. That means you will have an easy decision. Daniel your the messiah of poker!

[Poker Addict]

francis9, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 4:48 PM, said:

As i thought about it i think your play is really smart. It looks like a trap, but in fact you are protecting your weakness and forcing your opponent to polarize his range on the river. That means you will have an easy decision.

Yeah, my last comment about betting the river probably is a very unprofitable move. Of course the set calls you. And he could have been slowing up with the simple call on the turn. So he could have you crushed. If he has something like AJ I guess he could be scared to bet that after the c/r. Makes sense to me. I think I over play this on the river too often.

[David_Nicoson]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 14th, 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

Why do some of you rule out the idea that I could play a King this way? Surely you guys aren't robots are you!

Yes, yes we are. It pisses off robots when they price in a draw and have to pay it off on the river when the board offers a huge number of possible draws. We really hate that. It makes us want to connect your species to a simulated universe and use you for an energy source.

[Farmboyz]

(Haven't read any other posts, yet)Well, I suppose, that pre-flop, you're thinking you can outplay the villian later in the hand, considering your read on him. Once the flop hits, you've got to figure out whether he's got a King, a flush draw or a better Jack. Checking the flop makes complete sense, you don't want to bet into three kings. And, since he is a "careful" player, he would bet out if he had trips, not wanting to let the next cards come up flush. Once the villian checks, you're starting to feel safe that he doesn't have trips. The turn is a pretty safe card, and the villian's half-pot bet seems like a feeler (or a terrible bluff, but not likely), with something like AQ- or AT-suited. Your check-raising with the best hand, potentially. If he were slowplaying, he'd three-bet big right here (where you could get away with little lost). But, he doesn't, so now are you ruling out trips, for sure? He calls, and the river comes up safe, no flush. I'd be worried about AJ or JT. It sounds like those are in his range, to open raise with. So, after the river, you're probably thinking you're 50/50 to win, so you check.Either DN wins, or is outkicked.EDIT: I've read thru, including DN's answer. I don't know why I wasn't thinking big pair pre-flop. Totally dorky, by me, those are completely possible. But, by the end, highly unlikely.Also, I love the check-raise on the turn. It screams, "I have a king" to the villian. And, he has demonstrated that he probably doesn't have one. I'd be fine with firing at the river, too. With the busted flushes, he's outta there. (I don't find the straights to be in the "careful" range.)

[nutzbuster]

Well played.

[Deathwish238]

But what do you do if he checks on the turn as well? Do you then bet on the river or check and hope he raises on the river?

[Mattnxtc]

My question is this: You made a small turn c/r and if called what do you plan to do on the river? He could interpret your small turn raise followed by a check as a weak hand or even a draw and bet again. Do you call this river bet or fold? I would hope he bets more than just a king on this river.

[four10 lkc]

there is no way the villain is check the flop with AJ, which makes the check raise on the turn a relatively good move. The only hand I believe he would check with on the flop, and just smooth call a check raise on the turn is either an absolute monster, and just a draw, and it certainly does look more like a draw, I was thinking nut flush draw like AhQh. nice play daniel[x] imo

[MyPlayIsRAB]

i really like the explanation of why you check raised so small on this turn. if youre against a draw, youre going to get a bit more out of him if he bricks, and if he has Kx or some other dominant hand, it forces him to believe you might very strong. the very small raise generally means you want to becalled... although if theyre a competent player they might realize its a reverse tell. very well played post flop as always DN