20 replies to this topic

[7s7c]

5/10NL full ring, no reads only a few hands in, I've played with 2 people here but neither are in the hand eventually so it's meaningless.

Relevant stacks:

Hero: $1250ish
villain1: $1500ish
villain2: $1000ish

Villain 2 (UTG) calls $10
Hero (UTG+1) has raises to $45
Villain 1 (button) calls
Villain 2 shockingly folds

Pot: $115

Flop is

Hero bets $105, villain calls

Pot: $325

Pretty standard up to this point IMO.

Turn is

Hero: ?

[DaveUO]

Ive played in the borgata 5/10 a bit myself. I dont think that really matters all that much for this hand but I figured I would mention that. I think the optimal play here is to bet this turn vs a passive player and check vs an aggressive one. If the passive player raises your $250 turn bet you should not play for stacks there. He will have a set or a straight every time he raises you. He would just call with 2 pair. The aggro player will bet lots of hands that you beat so its best to check to him. He would fold many of those same hands if you bet. Also if you are beat by the aggressive player, check calling is optimal since if you bet and he raises your turn bet it will put you in a tough spot as he might raise with 2 pair type hands where you have great equity, but he would also raise a straight or set and you will have a very tough decision.

Very interesting hand.

[sactownjoey]

Yuck. I'm going to take a stab but I very well might be all wrong. I don't think he is flatting us with trips or two pair because of the drawy board. The only trips he shows up here with are 10s, IMO b/c we would have seen a pf raise with JJ or AA.

I think he flats us w/KQ, 89, KJ, Q10. Is he flatting w/ AK or some weaker A? I doubt it.

Based on the above, I don't think the 9 hurts us on the turn so I am betting $210. Don't ask me what happens if he raises

[Acid_Knight]

I think that a CRAI on the turn is your best choice. You should have a lot of FE against hands that beat you like AK, AT or A9 or JT and even if you are called by these hands, your actual equity is pretty decent. I kind of think that most players are going to show up with a KJ/QJ/QT/KT hand or two pair here a lot. I can't really see many weaker aces floating around in there, I guess 89 is a choice, but that seems a pretty bad hand to draw to considering the Q isn't a card you'd wanna hit.

I mean, this is a pretty standard situation that you run into a lot. You can't beat a lot, but you always have outs against his hands that do beat you. If you bet and get called, it's a crappy river spot on most cards. If you bet and get raised, you're gonna get pot stuck or close to it. If you c/c, it basically turns your hand face up as AK/AQ and allows him to play very well against you.

I think that a CRAI on the turn is probably best much of the time here. Against a set, you'll have 8 outs. Against any 2 pair hands (even top two), you'll have 11-17 outs and also a lot of FE since he should almost always fold a hand like JT or even AT or A9 to this CRAI. Really, the only hand we're not wanting to see is AK (which he should fold to the CR) or KQ (which snap calls obv).

[DaveUO]

Acids analysis is decent if you have absolutely no idea how the guy plays. It is not optimal if you have any sort of idea how the player plays. You dont need to have played with the player very long to have an idea of how he plays. I have played in these games and there are some very passive players. If this is a passive player, check raising them here is a really bad play. I dont really like a line here that is bad vs passive players and decent vs aggressive players. You definitely need to choose your line based on the player in this hand.

Edit: I know you have only been at the table a few hands, but literally as soon as I sit at these tables I can tell a lot about the players just by their age and clothes and the way they handle chips etc. It is very important when you dont have your HUD putting their stats above their head when you first sit down

[Sheiky]

I never thought of CRAI in this spot before but the logic behind it seems really sound.

Personaly i normaly check call here and do w/e on the river, i never though that it made my hand seem transparent before, but maybe it does.

I think this is a really tough decision because i don't see what he'd play this way apart from KQ and AK but i don't see check/folding as an option.

[Acid_Knight]

Edit: I know you have only been at the table a few hands, but literally as soon as I sit at these tables I can tell a lot about the players just by their age and clothes and the way they handle chips etc. It is very important when you dont have your HUD putting their stats above their head when you first sit down

I've played more than my fair share of hours in 5/10 NL games live. I know that it's temping to attach stereotypes and stuff, which is fine, but they are often wrong. Making plays based on the fact that a guy's old or young and wearing a FullTiltPoker hat seems far more flawed than just assuming less about them.

I designed my reply simply because it did say that we knew nothing. Really, checking and having it get checked through is fine. He doesn't often have a lot of outs against our hand, so letting him catch a 5 outer in a smaller pot isn't the end of the world. The fact is that most players are betting most of their ranges here since there aren't a ton of players who are going to CRAI on this turn. I think that without any other reads, the CRAI does the best job of getting value from worse hands, protecting our hand against any draws and also possibly semibluffing out some hands that are better.

[DaveUO]

Yeah I think your analysis is good. We just play slightly different in this situation. Probably not a huge difference either way. Cheers.

[mtdesmoines]

Hero: ?

$225. It's a slowdown bet, but two pair isn't shoving on us here and we can try to find our outs. I don't invest whole lot more UI on the river. I try to find a read on the turn to see if villain will check check river.

[mtdesmoines]

I think that a CRAI on the turn is your best choice.

Was in the back of my mind, and I like the play, and JT, AT etc. two pair hands should fold (they won't at $1/$2 and most $2/5 tho), but I really don't have the balls to play AQ that hard in this spot. (cheers to everyone who's called me a nit).

1. I have played in these games and there are some very passive players.

2. Edit: I know you have only been at the table a few hands, but literally as soon as I sit at these tables I can tell a lot about the players just by THE HANDS I SEE THEM PLAY.

1. Interesting. Seriously? Passives lurking in the Borgata $5/$10? Not the way I would have pictured it.

2. FYP. I've seen VERY FEW players "shift gears" live. Very few.

[tskillz187]

So me thinking C/F is pretty horrible eh?

[Acid_Knight]

So me thinking C/F is pretty horrible eh?

Thinking it is ok. Doing it is bad. I honestly like a c/f almost better than a c/c though.

[tskillz187]

Thinking it is ok. Doing it is bad. I honestly like a c/f almost better than a c/c though.

Blah, I like c/f the most. I feel dirty but I don't want to be OOP here and guessing. I don't like check/shoving in the hopes to fold out a better 2pr hand. I think the play is kind of cool, but leaves us muttering about how he's so far behind our "range" too often.

If he's LAG I think there's a better argument for the C/R, against someone I know nothing about I'd rather err on the side of caution, seeing as to me his betting range is hands that beat us and possibly pair +guttys. I like check/shove more than c/c because we do improve we aren't getting paid very much on 4 straight boards or boards that give us trips.

[7s7c]

I've seen VERY FEW players "shift gears" live. Very few.

I do it in this game but usually because either

A) I've misread how the table is playing and if I haven't played with anyone before I usually just do the opposite of what the table is predominantly doing

My hands have become transparent IMO one way or another

C) I get bored and decide to play some interesting hands more creatively (aka worse)

[Acid_Knight]

Blah, I like c/f the most. I feel dirty but I don't want to be OOP here and guessing. I don't like check/shoving in the hopes to fold out a better 2pr hand. I think the play is kind of cool, but leaves us muttering about how he's so far behind our "range" too often.

If he's LAG I think there's a better argument for the C/R, against someone I know nothing about I'd rather err on the side of caution, seeing as to me his betting range is hands that beat us and possibly pair +guttys. I like check/shove more than c/c because we do improve we aren't getting paid very much on 4 straight boards or boards that give us trips.

FWIW, I'd much rather check/shove AQ here than AT. I'd probably bet/fold any 2 pair hands like AT/JT/A9. AK is a hand I'm willing to c/f here. Any set or straight or probably even AJ is a bet/call. I just think that AQ has this weird versatility in this spot where it might be winning (but usually isn't) but has a ton of outs when we're losing (unless he's got KQ or AK) and it has the capacity to fold out better 2 pair hands, although it doesn't need to happen that often to increase our equity to make it a profitable shove.

With the AQ, obviously when I said c/f, I was referring to when we weren't getting a good price to hit our perceived outs.

[7s7c]

Hero checks, villain bets $250
Hero shoves. villain tanks for awhile. Says something like "I've played with you before, you play lots of hands" or something like that and calls. FWIW I still don't remember him.

River is

I happily table the nuts and villain mutters something expletive in nature at me and flashes J9os at which point I figured he would keep at the verbalness which he did, calling me a joke or the situation a joke, I'm not really sure which. While I enjoy bantering a great deal and would have obliged him in this endeavor, I normally don't at these stakes so I just sat there and eyed his mostly rebuy which I figured he would tilt off eventually. He did, but unfortunately to the small Asian kid to my right whose headphones were bigger than his head shoving into the kid's boat with A high.

Good play or no?

[David_Nicoson]

I happily table the nuts and villain mutters something expletive in nature at me and flashes J9os at which point I figured he would keep at the verbalness which he did, calling me a joke or the situation a joke, I'm not really sure which.

You're not even a 2:1 dog there.

[mtdesmoines]

Hero checks, villain bets $250
Hero shoves. villain tanks for awhile. Says something like "I've played with you before, you play lots of hands" or something like that and calls. FWIW I still don't remember him.

River is

I happily table the nuts and villain mutters something expletive in nature at me and flashes J9os at which point I figured he would keep at the verbalness which he did, calling me a joke or the situation a joke, I'm not really sure which. While I enjoy bantering a great deal and would have obliged him in this endeavor, I normally don't at these stakes so I just sat there and eyed his mostly rebuy which I figured he would tilt off eventually. He did, but unfortunately to the small Asian kid to my right whose headphones were bigger than his head shoving into the kid's boat with A high.

Good play or no?

Your play is ballsy, and I like it. It almost worked to fold the better hand, and then you hit an out anyway.

He's an idiot for being in this hand with J9. An IDIOT.

[7s7c]

Your play is ballsy, and I like it. It almost worked to fold the better hand, and then you hit an out anyway.

He's an idiot for being in this hand with J9. An IDIOT.

I thought it was pretty safe to assume I had 8 clean outs at worst and yeah I figured with the equity involved I wouldn't need them as with most non-straight hands he'd be doing that thing where you slide the cards face down to the dealer. I got half right.

[Acid_Knight]

I thought it was pretty safe to assume I had 8 clean outs at worst and yeah I figured with the equity involved I wouldn't need them as with most non-straight hands he'd be doing that thing where you slide the cards face down to the dealer. I got half right.

Isn't this what I said?

Against his hand, we have 16 outs AND he should fold to our shove. Against his range, we're still doing fine.

I obviously like the move