47 replies to this topic

[DanielNegreanu]

PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, K. 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) J, J, Q (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.Turn: (3.25 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.River: (3.25 BB) 2 (2 players)Hero bets, Button calls.Final Pot: 5.25 BB The question I have is this, based on the way this hand was played until the river, what range of hands would you call on the river with? Hero is me.

[davezz5]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 7:26 AM, said:

PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, K. 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) J, J, Q (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.Turn: (3.25 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.River: (3.25 BB) 2 (2 players)Hero bets, Button calls.Final Pot: 5.25 BB The question I have is this, based on the way this hand was played until the river, what range of hands would you call on the river with? Hero is me.

If I was villain, i would call with any king, ace high hand. If hero had shown more aggression on earlier streets i would most properly fold. the way this plays out the river bet feels like a steal and therefore i would call with either of the aforementioned holdings.

[bigcoled]

My guess would be that they guy either has 10-9 and gets scared of the Boat or someone falling into clubs... Or he has a hand like Q-10 or less, though 4 handed he may have been more aggressive with that hand...I wouldnt call with less than 2 pair...he may feel commited with a king high if he were playing to the river on a K-10... That would be my absolute min......

[beggar04]

Being the bad player that I am, I would have called to see if my AQ or KQ was good (yes I might have raised pre-flop with KQ on the button - I told you I'm bad!) Of course I would never be in stakes this high...

[FCP Bob]

As Daniel knows when I play against him I call with anything since I just put my head down and never even look at the board I would pay off the river with any A, K or pair in a 4 handed limit game where the hand played out this way.

[Zach6668]

I'm having trouble wording this correctly, so plz try to stay with me. lolThe villain has 3 basic options on this turn, depending on the strength of his hand, mostly.1) Bet turn, with the intention of putting in more bets - Naturally, this is done with his stronger made hands. Overpair, trips, straight, etc, where we can definitely stand a turn raise, and probably want to put in more action. Some bluffs will try to 3-barrel depending on the river as well.2) Bet turn, with the intention of checking behind on the river - Villain's range in this case probably includes a lot of pure bluffs/air type hands, and he's just firing a second barrel. It would also include some made, weaker hands, depending on our hero's tendencies. If hero plays straight forward, as villain, I'm betting this turn with hands that still have some value on the turn, and benefit from charging draws, getting calls from worse hands, etc. A hand like AK, 55, etc. These hands probably aren't strong enough to bet UI on most rivers, so the idea is to get them to SD cheaply, while extracting value from drawing hands. I'm also folding these hands to a raise vs straight forward players. This is essentially the last bet I put into the pot with my weaker made hands, and of course, with bluffs, I'm probably giving up on most rivers, depending on my reads.The problem is, DN is probably not a straight forward player. He's probably going to be tricky, and almost certainly has turn semi-bluffs and pure bluffs in his arsenal here. So, that brings us to villain's play in this specific hand.3) Check turn, with the intention of calling any river bet - The key for the villain here, is that he's going to have a hand with showdown value, but it can't really stand a raise, where we're probably going to have to duck a lot of outs vs a semi-bluff or even a pure bluff (which has 6 outs a lot), or we're way behind. So, instead of letting things get expensive, we just want to show this hand down, and hopefully let the hero in this hand value bet worse hands, or bluff with hands like K3o. Of course, it's still possible villain has just given up with his air, and will fold the river.For the most part though, aside from a small percentage of air that he will fold, villain is going to show up here with any Ace, smaller pocket pairs, maybe a hand like 78s that paired the 8 on the turn, etc. I'd expect his range, after his turn check, to be calling this river somewhere around 95% of the time.I love villain's play, and I don't even know what he held, lol.EDIT - I just wanted to add that villain should also probably call with some of the better kings as well as all of his ace-high hands here. DN's hand is almost never an ace high, with the exception of maybe some offsuit weak aces like A3, A4, so K high is practically the same as Ace high in this hand.

[Zach6668]

beggar04, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 10:59 AM, said:

Being the bad player that I am, I would have called to see if my AQ or KQ was good (yes I might have raised pre-flop with KQ on the button - I told you I'm bad!) Of course I would never be in stakes this high...

You'd definitely call with those hands, as they are top pair, in a 4 handed game...At the same time, you're never seeing this hand play out that way, because you should be betting the turn with those hands every time.

[Zach6668]

bigcoled, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

My guess would be that they guy either has 10-9 and gets scared of the Boat or someone falling into clubs...

There is a zero percent chance of this being his hand.

bigcoled, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

Or he has a hand like Q-10 or less, though 4 handed he may have been more aggressive with that hand...

I can see a bit of merit for checking the turn with a weaker Q, but I think about 99% of the time, villain is betting this hand on the turn, and calling down any raise, at least.

bigcoled, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

I wouldnt call with less than 2 pair...he may feel commited with a king high if he were playing to the river on a K-10... That would be my absolute min......

If you're folding your ace highs, and possible even some k-high hands on this river, you fold too much in a 4 handed game.

[beggar04]

Zach6668, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 8:33 AM, said:

You'd definitely call with those hands, as they are top pair, in a 4 handed game...At the same time, you're never seeing this hand play out that way, because you should be betting the turn with those hands every time.

I didn't pay attention that it was a 4-handed game. I am learning alot just reading this thread. I obviously don't play short-handed limit ever at any stakes.

[looshle]

I think you should have left out your hand here bc alot of people are going to give biased results.I think it's hard to give you a hand here, I would think more often than anything you have a Q here. A jack is very slim bc I think you'd be checkraising the flop almost 90% of the time based on the aggressiveness of a 4 handed 1/2 game online. I think you'd be c/r KT or 9T as well to get him off some ace highs or to get the lead and fold an AT or K9 on the turn. The only real hand I could give you here is a weak Q wanting to keep the pot smaller OOP and giving the A highs and gutshots more reason to fire the turn.The way it's played I prob call with any Q, TT, and any 9 I might have hit on the turn. It's hard to call with A high here bc you are a good player so it's hard to put you on a desperation river bet since they are called so often.

[Mr. Machiavelli]

davezz5, on Friday, January 4th, 2008, 7:33 AM, said:

If I was villain, i would call with any king, ace high hand. If hero had shown more aggression on earlier streets i would most properly fold. the way this plays out the river bet feels like a steal and therefore i would call with either of the aforementioned holdings.

Very good point about the the lack of aggression. I think you're chance to steal the pot was on the flop with a check-raise and then with another bet on the turn. Of course I'm not really sure about the particular table dynamics and not completely sure what a check-call on this flop from you usually is, but if I'm the button in this hand, I know you're very capable of calling on the flop with a wide range, and I know you're very capable of taking the lead on the river with a wide range. Given how the hand played out, I'm also guessing that button knows this and decided that his hand was strong enough to call one bet on the river but not a check-raise on the turn and another barrel on the river. If I'm the button here, I'm also a little suspicious of what you'd smooth call a bet on this flop with. You're probably going to check-raise any Q. Because of this, I'm going to guess that the button called with a marginal hand like Ace high or a weak pair like 6-6. And to answer your question, my minimum hand in my range for calling you would be Ace high, but it'd definitely be a crying call.By the way, I don't think I would have revealed what your hand was either just because it does bias the opinions and analysis people give. But please do post what the Button had in this hand because I want to see if I'm right about what range of hands he'd play this way.

[whatgreatis]

If I was villain I'd probably call down with any A-K-or pair. Your line looks pretty weak and I'm not sure what kind of hand your representing. The 2c does complete a back door flush but thats such a small range to bluff on. I'm not sure how you'd play a mid-pair in this situation so that could go into your range too.If this was a value bet I don't see many hands worse than yours that call.

[Bubba83]

Why'd you post us your hand if you're asking us to make a decision as the button on the river? It's clearly leading to biased replies.

[navybuttons]

didn't read responses. my first instinct would be 22+, Kx and Ax. i think i would listen to an argument for T7, but i think it's a fold. there's the chance that hero is bluffing with a hand that beats T7 (as is the case here).edit: read responses. i don't think my response was too biased by knowing what daniel had. against a complete unknown, i'm pretty sure it would be my calling range here. and then i'd change it as i developed a read.

[DanielNegreanu]

I goofed by posting my actual hand. I'll give you a little more info here: You have K-6 in this spot. What hands could I call the flop with that you cab beat by the river?Hands you can't beat:8-98-109-10J anythingQ anythingK-2K-10!!!A- anythingTwo random clubsHands you can beat:random 10 high or lower with no draw at allyou can tie a random king hi Now, think about this hand a little bit longer and come up with some reasonable responses. For me to check call the flop, then bet the river, and lose the pot... is that a reasonable enough, desperate hope, that you think justifies calling in the hopes that I decided to make a "play" by check CALLING the flop, not betting the turn, and then randomly firing at the river? Had I not goofed and posted my actual hand I think it some of you may felt like calling with a random King hi would be horrible in that spot.

[navybuttons]

DanielNegreanu, on Saturday, January 5th, 2008, 1:12 AM, said:

calling in the hopes that I decided to make a "play" by check CALLING the flop, not betting the turn, and then randomly firing at the river?

if i was the button in a loose 4 handed game, and i opened up (which i'm doing with a pretty HUGE range), and the BB called a flop c-bet, i would expect that on this flop his range could be almost any two cards. i don't think he'd be making too huge a mistake by peeling light (thinking correctly that any pair is probably good for him). DN, are you not peeling this flop w/ 79?any reasonable hand that i could have KT, Ax, Q, J, etc. probably bets for at least some value on that turn, so i could definitely see villain (BB in this case) showing up with something like 57 trying to get me to fold a T or a 9. but meh, maybe calling w/ Kx is terrible. i just don't see it yet.

[Zach6668]

Pretty standard for you to have any two cards on the flop peel, imo. Since it's unlikely he paired on that flop, it's pretty standard to assume you can peel with 1 over, since pairing either card is usually good.The fact of the matter is that his line is pretty standard vs most opponents. Maybe you're not in that category of opponents, but there are a lot of bet monkeys out there who will try to bluff that river once you show weakness, no matter how obvious it is that you're showdown bound.If villain did in fact have K6, that's very very marginal. In my first post, I didn't really consider Kx hands, but looking back (as you can see in my edit), I added the better once. I think K6 would be about the bottom bound of my range to take this line with.==============I'm curious though, what was your plan for this hand? You peel the flop with one over and a back door straight draw. So far it's pretty standard, IMO. Once you check the turn, what is your plan for when he bets? Are you just check/folding, or are you capable of throwing in a bluff here, or a semibluff? Just curious here.

[looshle]

Zach6668, on Saturday, January 5th, 2008, 7:15 AM, said:

Pretty standard for you to have any two cards on the flop peel, imo. Since it's unlikely he paired on that flop, it's pretty standard to assume you can peel with 1 over, since pairing either card is usually good.The fact of the matter is that his line is pretty standard vs most opponents. Maybe you're not in that category of opponents, but there are a lot of bet monkeys out there who will try to bluff that river once you show weakness, no matter how obvious it is that you're showdown bound.If villain did in fact have K6, that's very very marginal. In my first post, I didn't really consider Kx hands, but looking back (as you can see in my edit), I added the better once. I think K6 would be about the bottom bound of my range to take this line with.==============I'm curious though, what was your plan for this hand? You peel the flop with one over and a back door straight draw. So far it's pretty standard, IMO. Once you check the turn, what is your plan for when he bets? Are you just check/folding, or are you capable of throwing in a bluff here, or a semibluff? Just curious here.

A river call with k6 here isn't marginal, it's pretty atrocious. You can't beat ANYTHING. Hero is not going to have any 2 cards to peel the flop. A peel here with like 56 or 78 is bad and def -ev. The turn card is what makes the hand. Hands the Hero peels the flop with are most likely a hand that is either going to pair an 8 or make a straight with it, assuming he didn't hit the flop with a Q or a J. Hero could also have KT which would play against K6 or maybe even A high, which is unlikely though. There aren't many plays in limit poker that are as bad as this call would be for 2 reasons A) you are at the river meaning any bet you put in has it's exact value since the chance of sucking out is nonexistant and B) your hand is a loser almost 100% of the time when compared to the Hero's hand range. I'm pretty sure that's the whole reason DN decided to post this hand.

[Zach6668]

Yeah, meh. I'm not used to 4-handed dynamics. I'm mostly translating my HU experiences here. Originally, I didn't include the Kx hands until others mentioned them, and I was still a little hesitant to do so, and maybe influenced by the fact that Daniel did have K3.I still stand by any ace and any pair, though, given that I know nothing about DN's tendencies in the game.

[DanielNegreanu]

Ace high is a hand worth calling, that I'm ok with. Calling with K-rag is just horrifyingly bad in this spot and I can guarantee that it's a long term losing player under any circumstances, heads up or not. My peeling range is NOT any hand that he could beat... EVER. He can't beat K-10 or K-9! He has to pray that I'm making some "play" at him at the river and not before. I could see myself check-raising this flop with a hand like 9-7 (once in a while) but never check calling and showing no aggression in the hopes of a random bluff attempt on the river. I called the flop and bet the river because I had my opponent on exactly king high, or possibly worse. My flop call isn't one I'll always make but my opponent wasn't the type to fire bullets after my flop call so my intention was to check it down in the hopes that king high is the best hand. When the 8 hit the turn, though, I figured I had to bet in case he has king high or decides to fold ace high there (it's actually the right play vs. me for sure). If there were a flush draw on the flop I wouldn't have bothered with a river bet, but because that board and the 8 on the turn hits EVERYTHING I figured he'd have to be pretty terrible to call with King hi. FWIW, I habitually crush that guy. The biggest mistake these guys all make is that they pay off way too much. Sure, it's limit, and that means you have to call more often, but don't stretch it beyond even "trying" to make a good lay down once in awhile. If this guy planned on paying me off on any river card, a much better play for him would have been to bet the turn and then give up after that. He bets the turn he could possibly get me off ace high or a small pair even.