134 replies to this topic

[Bubba83]

DanielNegreanu, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 9:19 PM, said:

As for not leading the turn, I had already decided that if I checked and there was a bet from one of the other players in the pot that it would be highly likely that one of them had me beat, no question about it. Rather than pay a bet on the turn to find out where I'm at, I can check and pay attention to the action and accomplish the same thing, only cheaper.

I don't think it's highly likely you're beat just because UTG overcalled the flop, what about 55+? Do you think he leads those on the flop most of the time instead? It kind of depends how savvy he is as well. He could have overcalled with the sole intention of running a bluff.

[Acid_Knight]

Naismith (9:51:04 PM): I'm posting. I'm going to put him in his place.I can't wait...

[Moneyball16]

Bubba83, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 10:43 PM, said:

He could have overcalled with the sole intention of running a bluff.

This seems very unlikely given that the pot is multiway and he doesn't even have position.

[Acid_Knight]

Moneyball16, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 10:02 PM, said:

This seems very unlikely given that the pot is multiway and he doesn't even have position.

I agree with this. It's also too likely that Daniel has a Q here and running some weird multi street bluff in a multiway pot is just burning money.

[Naismith]

DanielNegreanu, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 6:13 PM, said:

I'm new to this converter deal, how would you have played the Q8?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $50 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP1 ($925)MP2 ($4569)MP3 ($15524.50)CO ($7791)Button ($9538)Hero ($12126)BB ($5075)UTG ($2272)UTG+1 ($5593)Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, Q. UTG calls $50, 5 folds, Button calls $50, Hero completes, BB checks.Flop: ($200) Q, Q, 4 (4 players)Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets $150, Hero calls $150, BB folds, UTG calls $150.Turn: ($650) T (3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.River: ($650) J (3 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $400, Button folds, Hero folds.Final Pot: $650

Okay, I'm in the camp that this is a fold preflop and I don't think it's even close. I don't see how playing Q8 OOP is going to get us into anything except trouble. What are we hoping to hit with it? Trips? Apparently not even that is a good flop. This hand is a pretty good example of us hitting a dream flop and still not liking our hand.Do you feel like people play back at you more frequently than they would if you were playing on an anonymous account? I generally bet out trips from the blinds because you never get credit for betting out trips. Since that's considered the "smart play", I'm not sure whether you would be given more credit for having a hand here since you're a known good player or if you get less credit because people love to play back at you. Your hand is so under-represented here that it's tempting to say call, but the only thing you're ever beating is a hand UTG decided to turn into a bluff (55-99) or a slowplayed AA-KK. I almost am leaning more towards the slowplayed AA-KK because any of the hands with a Q in it that beat you (AQ, KQ, QJ) are raising hands UTG and any of the pairs that boated up (TT, JJ) aren't really strong limp-trap hands. Do we have any reads on UTG? Is he a good player? I just don't see a lot of UTG limping from good players with hands that beat us.(I think I need to enter a brief aside here to apologize for the rambling but I'm thinking this through as I type rather than prior to typing)I certainly understand the logic with this passive line, but I think we lose a lot of value and information in this spot. I think we've allowed UTG to call the flop bet with, say, 77 and then make a play on the river because we've shown weakness throughout. It takes a pretty solid read to say, "I'm calling with my trips and if anyone calls behind, I'm done with the hand." What do we do if the board runs out 2 & 3 on the turn and river? Are we still done with the hand?Okay, I think I've organized my thoughts enough to summarize how I feel:I feel like this hand is played poorly on every street, to be honest with you. I hate completing with it from the SB since there are almost no flops we like. I hate check-calling the flop. Once we've check-called the flop, I think betting the turn is mandatory to put UTG to a decision with the button behind him to act. Once we've played the previous streets as played, I think we need to call the river because we've under-repped our hand so dramatically and the UTG player's limping range should be so narrow that a lot of hands that beat us aren't in it. This last sentence is obviously moot with some reads that suggest UTG open-limps AQ, KQ, QJ, JJ, TT, 44.EDIT: Just wanted to add that I feel the range of hands that beat us is exactly 44.

[Acid_Knight]

Naismith, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 10:18 PM, said:

I certainly understand the logic with this passive line, but I think we lose a lot of value and information in this spot. I think we've allowed UTG to call the flop bet with, say, 77 and then make a play on the river because we've shown weakness throughout. It takes a pretty solid read to say, "I'm calling with my trips and if anyone calls behind, I'm done with the hand." What do we do if the board runs out 2 & 3 on the turn and river? Are we still done with the hand?Okay, I think I've organized my thoughts enough to summarize how I feel:I feel like this hand is played poorly on every street, to be honest with you. I hate completing with it from the SB since there are almost no flops we like. I hate check-calling the flop. Once we've check-called the flop, I think betting the turn is mandatory to put UTG to a decision with the button behind him to act. Once we've played the previous streets as played, I think we need to call the river because we've under-repped our hand so dramatically and the UTG player's limping range should be so narrow that a lot of hands that beat us aren't in it. This last sentence is obviously moot with some reads that suggest UTG open-limps AQ, KQ, QJ, JJ, TT, 44.EDIT: Just wanted to add that I feel the range of hands that beat us is exactly 44.

I really like the flop flat call because really, what other choice do we have once we check? I agree leading is best, but if we c/r and one or both opponents call, then what do we do? We're OOP and they could be floating or crushing us. I think that leading the turn is the point in this hand that could've salvaged the operation. Putting UTG to a decision with the button still to act would be huge for us in terms of defining his hand.I think that at these limits, people are more than capable of limping TT or JJ UTG. Not necessarily as a trap, although they'd have that option, but just because it's going to be a really messy hand if the players at the table are calling a lot of raises. Maybe they're just balancing their ranges, who knows.I think that players are definitely capable of limping UTG with the entire range of hands that beat us.Overall I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for the assertion that we need to call because our hand is under-repped. If we feel we're crushed by his range and it's unprofitable to be calling, then a fold is in order.

[Acid_Knight]

Naismith (10:32:22 PM): I think limping UTG is so bad with hands that beat outs.Naismith (10:32:23 PM): Ours.Acid_Knight (10:33:03 PM): yeahNaismith (10:32:31 PM): But that doesn't mean people don't do it.Acid_Knight (10:33:08 PM): in a vacuum it isAcid_Knight (10:33:12 PM): butAcid_Knight (10:33:16 PM): we don't know about the playerAcid_Knight (10:33:26 PM): for all we know, he's a super good proNaismith (10:33:15 PM): Yeah, definitely.Acid_Knight (10:33:50 PM): and he balances the shit out of his ranges by limping every hand he'll play UTG so that he can get away with cheaply seeing a flop with T9s because he could be limping KKAcid_Knight (10:34:00 PM): and he could be limping TTAcid_Knight (10:34:01 PM): and 22Acid_Knight (10:34:03 PM): and everythingNaismith (10:33:39 PM): I also don't hate calling for that same reason.Naismith (10:33:45 PM): Balancing out hands we'll check-call with.Naismith (10:33:51 PM): Even if it costs us 400.Acid_Knight (10:34:29 PM): yeahAcid_Knight (10:34:32 PM): i guessAcid_Knight (10:34:35 PM): i meanAcid_Knight (10:34:43 PM): unless he's taking a hand like 99 hereNaismith (10:34:11 PM): I'm not saying to throw away 400.Acid_Knight (10:34:47 PM): and turning it into a bluffAcid_Knight (10:34:52 PM): we're not beating himAcid_Knight (10:34:58 PM): because he overcalled that flopAcid_Knight (10:35:06 PM): when it's so apparently that a lot of DN's range is Qx thereNaismith (10:34:39 PM): I think it's more likely a pair he's turning into a bluff or a weird v-bet line with AA.Acid_Knight (10:35:27 PM): i still think he checks back AA or KK a lot thereAcid_Knight (10:35:38 PM): or leads the flopAcid_Knight (10:35:40 PM): or doesn't overcallNaismith (10:35:18 PM): Yeah, the flop check makes me think AA-KK is less likely.Acid_Knight (10:36:00 PM): wellAcid_Knight (10:36:03 PM): the flop check is fineAcid_Knight (10:36:08 PM): i mean, if he as KK or AAAcid_Knight (10:36:10 PM): but the overcallAcid_Knight (10:36:13 PM): that's really sketchyAcid_Knight (10:36:27 PM): i mean, it's kind of sketchy to overcall that flop with anything that's NOT a Qx handNaismith (10:35:59 PM): Okay, let's say he has AA or KK there.Naismith (10:36:04 PM): And he does overcall.Naismith (10:36:41 PM): When it gets checked through the turn and checked to you again on the river, I don't think it's terribly unlikely someone v-bets there.Acid_Knight (10:37:28 PM): yeah, but really all he's got is a bluff catcherNaismith (10:37:02 PM): LOLAcid_Knight (10:37:37 PM): what's gonna call?Acid_Knight (10:37:47 PM): what's he gonna get value from?Acid_Knight (10:37:55 PM): that called the flop betAcid_Knight (10:38:05 PM): i dunnoNaismith (10:37:40 PM): Negreanu's J4o!Naismith (10:37:40 PM): That rivered three pair!Naismith (10:38:13 PM): All I know is UTG played the hand badly, I don't care what he had. Naismith (10:38:33 PM): Unless he had two pieces of paper and said, "I know DN has the Q, but my overcall is soooo strong."Acid_Knight (10:39:13 PM): lolAcid_Knight (10:39:16 PM): that'd be impressiveAcid_Knight (10:39:36 PM): but, i already said running a multi street bluff there against 2 players on that dry of a board is suicideAcid_Knight (10:39:46 PM): especially considering, THERE'S NO MONEY IN THE POTNaismith (10:39:08 PM): I think it's super lame to move this hand from our section.Acid_Knight (10:39:47 PM): yeahNaismith (10:41:45 PM): UTG is going to turn out to be, like, Antonius and I'm going to look really smart calling him a donk.

[AndyZ28]

Acid_Knight, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 12:43 AM, said:

Naismith (10:41:45 PM): UTG is going to turn out to be, like, Antonius and I'm going to look really smart calling him a donk.

Best line in that whole conversation. :lol:I'm still sticking with my first reply. I would have lead the turn after check/calling and called the river as played.

[Royal_Tour]

Naismith, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 10:18 PM, said:

Okay, I'm in the camp that this is a fold preflop and I don't think it's even close. I don't see how playing Q8 OOP is going to get us into anything except trouble. What are we hoping to hit with it? Trips? Apparently not even that is a good flop. This hand is a pretty good example of us hitting a dream flop and still not liking our hand.

As I stated before, I opt to make completions with mediocre hands. Myself, I dont like Q8, but thats not too say DN cant just play it.when You play lots of live poker, you focus more on your reads of every player at the table opposed to your hand itself. ( i know i dont have to tell you guys. or quote rounders)But to say that completing is a leak? no way. "not even close, only going to get you into trouble?" If you cant play trash hands OOP successfully than I can see where you would rather just save the 25. Sometimes being first to act has its advantages. and this being a 25/50NL game I think people are capable of knowing when to lay down Top pair no kicker. so i think its safe to say we can rule out the idea that DN is going to spew chips on a board of Q,J,3 if there is any aggression.

[Naismith]

Royal_Tour, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 12:09 AM, said:

As I stated before, I opt to make completions with mediocre hands. Myself, I dont like Q8, but thats not too say DN cant just play it.when You play lots of live poker, you focus more on your reads of every player at the table opposed to your hand itself. ( i know i dont have to tell you guys. or quote rounders)But to say that completing is a leak? no way. "not even close, only going to get you into trouble?" If you cant play trash hands OOP successfully than I can see where you would rather just save the 25. Sometimes being first to act has its advantages. and this being a 25/50NL game I think people are capable of knowing when to lay down Top pair no kicker. so i think its safe to say we can rule out the idea that DN is going to spew chips on a board of Q,J,3 if there is any aggression.

Cool, so we don't have to worry about losing a lot of chips on a QJ3 board with it and we're not winning any on a QQx flop. Tremendous. Why are we playing it again?

[Bubba83]

Acid_Knight, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 10:03 PM, said:

I agree with this. It's also too likely that Daniel has a Q here and running some weird multi street bluff in a multiway pot is just burning money.

What about the Daniel Negreanu factor? "I ran a complicated bluff on Daniel Negreanu!"

[Royal_Tour]

Naismith, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 12:30 AM, said:

Cool, so we don't have to worry about losing a lot of chips on a QJ3 board with it and we're not winning any on a QQx flop. Tremendous. Why are we playing it again?

why arent we winning the QQx flop? we havent seen results yet. I'm a big fan that we do win with Qx on this board. which is why i make the river call.

[Naismith]

Royal_Tour, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 1:08 AM, said:

why arent we winning the QQx flop? we havent seen results yet. I'm a big fan that we do win with Qx on this board. which is why i make the river call.

We aren't winning because we folded. We folded because it's so hard to play a crappy hand like this, even on a dream flop.

[Royal_Tour]

Naismith, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 1:19 AM, said:

We aren't winning because we folded. We folded because it's so hard to play a crappy hand like this, even on a dream flop.

no trick, reverse psychology posts.

[DanielNegreanu]

The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP. A Q-Q-4 flop in a limped pot simply isn't a "dream flop" at all since it's dangerous. A flop like 8-4-2 is closer to a dream flop, or even better Q-8-4 with two of a suit, etc. I can't imagine folding while getting 7 to 1 is a good idea, position or not. As for my play of the hand, also notice the bet size the limper chose on the river. It screams of a value bet. Of course, if he knew that I'd think that it would be a good amount to bet as a bluff, but the idea of a bluff in this situation is very unlikely. Possible, but not likely enough to call getting 2.6 to 1 even though I could also beat AA or KK. Check calling the flop and leading the turn isn't a "bad play" at all and it could give you more information. Having said that, my choice is an even better play IMO as I'll still get information on the turn by checking. If either player bets the turn in that situation making a habit of folding will save you money in the long run.

[penne]

I think we can eliminate AA or KK from the utg limper simply because he didn't bet the flop. In this spot he usually bets that flop to see where he is at, if he gets called or c/r he can slow down assuming that someone has a Q. If he is still slowplaying or just c/c with AA or KK after this flop he has no idea if he is good or not.

[David_Nicoson]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 7:40 AM, said:

The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP.

If the UTG player is Daniel Negreanu, does he want a second Daniel Negreanu to complete in the small blind with Q8o? Surely he can outplay the Daniel Negreanu in the small blind.It's entirely possible that you are making money with junk in the small blind. I'm also pretty sure that I'm not. It's a knowable thing online. Are you using pokertracker?I maintain that 7:1 means almost nothing. If the hands checks around on 4 streets, then yeah. But I don't expect that to happen. In your example, you end up bluffing with air. To try to win the pot, you invested the $25 plus the $150. So the whole gambit is really laying you only 1.17 : 1. That's obviously fine if you're winning the pot often with this bet, but compare this to playing Q8o on the button with a limper in the cut-off. Here you're getting only 3.5 : 1 preflop. After you run a similar bluff (and I recognize that you might need a different board to be effective), you're getting 1:1. The cost of running the bluff (or of snapping off a bluff) dwarfs the cost of the tickets for the hand.So I think it stands to reason that if we can make money completing the small blind we can make money limping on the button with junk. You may do this also successfully. In neither case are you making money on the long odds the preflop call is giving you.

[Sheiky]

Is the UTG limper LittleZen?That guy shortstacks anywhere from 5/10 to 100/200 but i think he might be a reg.

[Acid_Knight]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 4:40 AM, said:

The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP. A Q-Q-4 flop in a limped pot simply isn't a "dream flop" at all since it's dangerous. A flop like 8-4-2 is closer to a dream flop, or even better Q-8-4 with two of a suit, etc. I can't imagine folding while getting 7 to 1 is a good idea, position or not. As for my play of the hand, also notice the bet size the limper chose on the river. It screams of a value bet. Of course, if he knew that I'd think that it would be a good amount to bet as a bluff, but the idea of a bluff in this situation is very unlikely. Possible, but not likely enough to call getting 2.6 to 1 even though I could also beat AA or KK. Check calling the flop and leading the turn isn't a "bad play" at all and it could give you more information. Having said that, my choice is an even better play IMO as I'll still get information on the turn by checking. If either player bets the turn in that situation making a habit of folding will save you money in the long run.

Daniel,I understand that you're getting awesome pot odds, but do you really think that you're going to win enough pots to make this profitable? There is usually a slightly worried feeling about anyone who limps UTG in a FR game actually having a big hand, and then there's still the LP position player to worry about. Nobody is doubting your postflop skill here, but it just seems that it will be a very hard hand to play profitable against 3 other opponents when we are out of position.There is something to be said about image plays and stuff, but if you're gonna play trash from the SB, play 23o. Play a hand that is never dominated. Play a hand that can make a good winning hand. We're completing here with a hand that can never flop a flush, can flop the 2nd nut straight on JT9 or 1 card straight draws and we're not even loving it when we flop top trips because Qx hands are so likely for our opponents to have.So, what the hell are we looking for then? Are we really playing this hand OOP, hoping for a board that misses 3 other players and none of them decide to stab at it and we're able to pick up the pot? Yeah, sometimes we flop 2nd pair and we know we're good. Sometimes we find weakness in our opponent's line and raise to take the pot away. I can do that with any hand. Give me 56o here all day because I can flop more solid hands and I can still prey on the those weak lines the same way that I would with this hand.I am fine with you saying "sometimes I play it and sometimes I don't" but for you to say that the day that you fold Q8o from the SB is the day you quit poker, what do you think you're giving up by folding a hand that weak in a position that weak?

[Naismith]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 4:40 AM, said:

The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all:

Okay, so the point you're making isn't about Q8, it's about the dealer remembering to deal you two cards. Certainly the situation you're talking about, it doesn't matter what you have...you always have the chance to bluff at a flop that missed everyone. If it's limped to you, you're going to complete any two cards on the SB because any two cards give you more of a chance to win the pot than folding. :)I don't think you really want to get too excited about Q8 on an 8-4-2 flop. You're certainly going to have to let that go with any action from the two limpers, right? It's only a "good" flop relative to QQ4 because we're more likely to lose a big one when we're behind on a QQ4 flop. That leaves pretty much only Q8x as flops we're hoping to hitI think live where your reading skills are so amazing, this is a profitable spot for you. I don't even doubt that you can make it work online, but I think in general this is bad advice to give. I think those of us that aren't one of the top poker players in the world would definitely show a loss in the long run not being pickier with which hands we play from the blinds.