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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:24 PM

Checkout the following hand and discuss:PokerStars Game #14187355754: Hold'em Limit ($100/$200) - 2007/12/29 - 19:19:53 (ET)Table 'Hermione' 6-max Seat #6 is the buttonSeat 1: sillykitten ($3000 in chips) Seat 2: KPR16 ($8144 in chips) Seat 3: Donald ($934.50 in chips) Seat 5: KidPoker ($7116 in chips) Seat 6: Team Angle ($9786.50 in chips) sillykitten: posts small blind $50KPR16: posts big blind $100*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to KidPoker [5d 5h]Donald: folds KidPoker: raises $100 to $200Team Angle: raises $100 to $300sillykitten: raises $100 to $400Betting is cappedKPR16: folds KidPoker: calls $200Team Angle: calls $100*** FLOP *** [6c 5c Ah]sillykitten: bets $100KidPoker: calls $100Team Angle: raises $100 to $200sillykitten: raises $100 to $300KidPoker: calls $200Team Angle: raises $100 to $400Betting is cappedsillykitten: calls $100KidPoker: calls $100*** TURN *** [6c 5c Ah] [Js]sillykitten: checks KidPoker: bets $200Team Angle: raises $200 to $400sillykitten: raises $200 to $600KidPoker: raises $200 to $800Betting is cappedTeam Angle: calls $400sillykitten: calls $200*** RIVER *** [6c 5c Ah Js] [6h]sillykitten: checks KidPoker: bets $200Team Angle: calls $200sillykitten: calls $200*** SHOW DOWN ***KidPoker: shows [5d 5h] (a full house, Fives full of Sixes)Team Angle: mucks hand sillykitten: mucks hand KidPoker collected $5498 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $5500 | Rake $2 Board [6c 5c Ah Js 6h]Seat 1: sillykitten (small blind) mucked [As Jd]Seat 2: KPR16 (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 3: Donald folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: KidPoker showed [5d 5h] and won ($5498) with a full house, Fives full of SixesSeat 6: Team Angle (button) mucked [Ac Jc]




#2 David_Nicoson

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:29 PM

PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is MP with 5Posted Image, 5Posted Image. 1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls.Flop: (13 SB) 6Posted Image, 5Posted Image, APosted Image (3 players)SB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls.Turn: (12.50 BB) JPosted Image (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls.River: (22.50 BB) 6Posted Image (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.Final Pot: 25.50 BB
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#3 Waffles2003

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:30 PM

Sir, you better update your post before it gets ended. There are guidelines when posting hands in the strategy forum. Sad but true :club:
d(*.*)b

#4 Sheiky

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:31 PM

Wrong forum.I think TeamAngle is a pretty big fish aswell, i was watching him in a 25/50 game and he was shortstacking badly.Also, why no raise on the flop?

#5 Zach6668

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:36 PM

I'm so conflicted here. (edit - wow, everyone beat me to it)Poker StarsLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $100/$2005 playersConverterPre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with :club: :D UTG folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB caps, BB folds, Hero calls, Button calls.Flop: :) :D :D (13SB, 3 players)SB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls.Turn: :) (12.5BB, 3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls.River: :D (24.5BB, 3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.Results:Final pot: 27.5BB==============================Meh, kinda just a cooler. I'm not sure how you could really play it all that differently, other than the obvious capping the flop and just leading the turn.I kinda wonder what the thinking was here. By just coldcalling, are you hoping sexykitten leads the turn so you can face Angle with two cold, and charge the obvious draws a bit more? However, once Angle caps, we're really concerned about him having a draw he'll check behind, so I like the turn lead, as played.I lead the river as well.Oh, I just noticed you just smoothed the flop twice. I wouldn't do that, at least the first bet, I'd always raise. Would you play a draw this way? Unlikely, right? So, I'd play my set just like I'd play my draw and jam it.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#6 Sheiky

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:39 PM

Er, hows it a cooler? DN won didn't he?Unless you mean for the other guys i guess

#7 Zach6668

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:48 PM

View PostSheiky, on Saturday, December 29th, 2007, 7:39 PM, said:

Er, hows it a cooler? DN won didn't he?Unless you mean for the other guys i guess
You can win coolers.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#8 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 04:58 PM

I would never jam the flop with a draw in that type of situation actually. The only real reason to jam a draw on the flop would be that you could also possibly win the pot as a semi-bluff. That was completely ruled out when 4 bets went in before the flop. The smooth call on the flop could get me into what I call a "whipsaw" situation with the button raising and trapping the other guy which is what happened. Once the first player 3 bets it I KNOW he's going to bet the turn so I can pop it there. I just called to disguise my hand. Now, when the button caps it I'm worried he may be trying to take the lead so he can check behind me. That, I couldn't let happen so I had to lead the turn. When it's raised and re-raised to me, in a "normal" game I'd have to be really worried about being beat here but only by 66 really. JJ are almost impossible and AA is very unlikely with both of them raising the turn. I decide to just cap it. It was such a sick turn card, wow.




#9 pokerfriendly

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 05:04 PM

i very happy the way you played that hand i woul'nt change a thing and it seems playing it that way maximized the pot well done !
The ones that succeed are the ones that show up!!

#10 Zach6668

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 05:42 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, December 29th, 2007, 7:58 PM, said:

I would never jam the flop with a draw in that type of situation actually. The only real reason to jam a draw on the flop would be that you could also possibly win the pot as a semi-bluff. That was completely ruled out when 4 bets went in before the flop. The smooth call on the flop could get me into what I call a "whipsaw" situation with the button raising and trapping the other guy which is what happened. Once the first player 3 bets it I KNOW he's going to bet the turn so I can pop it there. I just called to disguise my hand. Now, when the button caps it I'm worried he may be trying to take the lead so he can check behind me. That, I couldn't let happen so I had to lead the turn. When it's raised and re-raised to me, in a "normal" game I'd have to be really worried about being beat here but only by 66 really. JJ are almost impossible and AA is very unlikely with both of them raising the turn. I decide to just cap it. It was such a sick turn card, wow.
Ok, I mean, if that's how you're playing a draw, then I'm 100% fine with the flop play.I agree with your reasoning to lead the turn, and of course, I cap as well, purely for value, as we're rarely behind, and if we are, it's just a cooler, and nothing we can really do. We beat too much not to put in the action
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#11 Bubba83

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:13 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, December 29th, 2007, 4:58 PM, said:

I would never jam the flop with a draw in that type of situation actually. The only real reason to jam a draw on the flop would be that you could also possibly win the pot as a semi-bluff.
What about jamming for value in a three way pot where you have a 40%+ish chance to win even against sets?Also: I raise the flop without some significant reads on button. If button has KK, QQ etc he's not raising behind us unless he's a nutbar for example

#12 Actuary

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:12 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, December 29th, 2007, 4:58 PM, said:

and AA is very unlikely with both of them raising the turn.
I like this thought a lot.***Do you lead a blank river?I realize the 6 really cuts down on the hands that beat you

#13 navybuttons

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:18 AM

i might have just called the 3-bet on the turn and b/c the river when SB checks.i don't know how much value i'm giving up, but there's too much action for me to feel comfortable capping the turn here. at least that's the way it feels for me reading it. in the heat i might cap all streets.edit: the reasoning with the A and people going crazy got me, in the heat i don't get it but upon reflection i do.edit 2: the SBs play is pretty interesting too.
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#14 Zach6668

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 05:00 AM

More analysis:SB really overplayed his hand on the flop, and preflop. I'm pretty sure I'm folding AJo OOP to 3 bets cold. Once we get there though, I'm never 3-betting with that action.Button's flop cap is ridiculous as well, keeping in mind I wasn't at the table, so obviously I've got no dynamics to go off of.Beyond that, the turn plays itself, and the river as well.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#15 Sheiky

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 07:11 AM

Is it really that ridiculous caping the flop with top pair and the nut flush draw against someone who he probably knows overplays hands?

#16 StilettoNole

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:50 PM

When I first read this (and saw the 6 on the river), all I could think of was HSP against Gus. I wonder if this flashed through Dan's mind at all?
My blog. Braking even>losing money. 3/14/08.

QUOTE(BaseJester @ Thursday, March 13th, 2008, 3:52 PM) *
You figure him for a draw, so I like that you made that bitch pay on the turn.


An e-mail from my dad, who is a weekend online super low limit, only for fun player:
"Hey Bud,
What is a "donk"?
I was small blind, had 2 and 3 off suit, with a 100 raise. I called.
Flop was 5, 2, 2. They raised, so I came over the top. We ended up all in and I won.
He asked my how I could call a $100 with a 2 & a 3. My reply was "just hit the call key". I think I ticked them off.
What do you think? That is when he called me a "donk".
Love you
Dad"

#17 Bubba83

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 03:04 PM

If you're still reading Daniel, I am curious to know more about the flop. I see you were going for a smooth call hoping button raises and traps SB in the middle for at least 3-bets, but I am wondering if you had some kind of read that button was definitely going to raise or what. How often does button have to raise to make this play worth it? It's just scary to me to give the button a chance to smooth call with a hand like Qc Kc etc.Looking at results, I doubt your decision to smooth call the flop made you any bets given the opponents hands in this instance, as I think if you had raised you're getting 3-bet by button or called, and SB is going wild with any chance he gets. I think the flop line would be best if two conditions are true: #1 is that you must know the button raises your smooth call A LOT, and #2 is that the guy you're trying to trap in the middle has a hand he likes, but won't call two cold with. If we think he'll call two cold, we should raise the flop instead to charge the draws.

#18 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 03:53 PM

View PostBubba83, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 12:13 AM, said:

What about jamming for value in a three way pot where you have a 40%+ish chance to win even against sets?Also: I raise the flop without some significant reads on button. If button has KK, QQ etc he's not raising behind us unless he's a nutbar for example
Because raising the flop decreases the chance it will be a 3 way pot if you force the button out.




#19 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 03:57 PM

View PostBubba83, on Sunday, December 30th, 2007, 3:04 PM, said:

If you're still reading Daniel, I am curious to know more about the flop. I see you were going for a smooth call hoping button raises and traps SB in the middle for at least 3-bets, but I am wondering if you had some kind of read that button was definitely going to raise or what. How often does button have to raise to make this play worth it? It's just scary to me to give the button a chance to smooth call with a hand like Qc Kc etc.Looking at results, I doubt your decision to smooth call the flop made you any bets given the opponents hands in this instance, as I think if you had raised you're getting 3-bet by button or called, and SB is going wild with any chance he gets. I think the flop line would be best if two conditions are true: #1 is that you must know the button raises your smooth call A LOT, and #2 is that the guy you're trying to trap in the middle has a hand he likes, but won't call two cold with. If we think he'll call two cold, we should raise the flop instead to charge the draws.
If the button had KQ of clubs he's not calling. The thing you are missing out on is the fact that if the button doesn't have an ace a raise on the flop will surely get him to fold, whereas if you smooth call he may take one off with a weak hand since the pot is so big. The key to the smooth calling the flop is maintaining the opportunity to raise the turn by allowing the small blind to keep the lead. If the button has a hand and raises, that's great too because the pot gets bigger without me having to reveal the strength of my hand. My cap doesn't give away anything at all as it could easily be a draw looking to build the pot.




#20 Bubba83

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:20 PM

Why wouldn't he call with a flush draw if he has Kc Qc? Are you saying he'd fold or raise?




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