Have Some Outs

[David_Nicoson 1]

Bodog 1/2 9-max Seat BB is 19/9Hijack is 24/8.StacksEffective stacks of $200 ish.Preflop2 folds. Hero raises to 5 with T 8 . //I'm in EP stealin' ur blinds. Or something. Maybe getting a little frisky here.Hijack calls $5.00. 2 folds. Big blind raises to $16.00Hero calls $11.00 //I can fade a reraise here. I credit my small opener.Hijack calls $11.00Flop ($49)8 7 2 Big blind bets $18.00 //This is a pretty weak lead into this board. Hero calls $18.00. //I think I might have the best hand, plus the opportunity to represent a variety of things on later streets. Hijack calls $18.00 //Crap. That's bad.Turn ($103)J :spade:Big blind checks. Hero ??? //I figure the PFR whiffed but the hijack is on hearts.

[Snamuh 0]

Awkward spot. I prefer a flop raise of the weak lead. It's likely the HJ has hearts but what heart combinations fit into his range? AhJh, QhJh, KhJh all probably fit into his range. ThJh/9hJh would probably raise the flop. 9Ts is also a possibility? Problem is, if you fire 65-75 here and he has a J, straight, or heart draw, he'll be calling with position to shove any river. Are you going to be able to call a river shove U/I? I probably just C/F.

[nomad_monad 0]

i think this is sort of closehere's the range that we're likely up againstKQh, A6-A2h --> 6 combos, 70% equity against, which are probably folding to a $70 betAhQh --> 65% equity against, again probably folding to a betAJh,ATh,A9h,KJh,QJh --> 5 combos, 37% equity against, which are likely to either call or raiseTs9s,Td9d --> obviousOther heart draw hands are probably playing faster on the flop.So you're likely up against 7 hands that are folding, and 7 that are calling/raising. Betting $70 would require us to fold villains about 40% of the time. The hand combos justify it, but it's close enough where I probably would just let this go because we can't be sure villain won't chase with heart draws he should be folding, and combined with the part of his range that he could easily just flat call with, it makes a potential river such a mess as to be -EV.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Preflop seems kind of ambitious, even for me.I also prefer a raise of his weak flop bet, especially to define the player's hand behind us. You can get away with raising to as little as $50 becuase that should fold out any UI overcards and it puts pressure on the button.I am not betting this turn very often at all here. I'll check and see how much and how quickly the button bets do decide whether I want to c/f, c/c or crai.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Big blind checks. Hero ??? //I figure the PFR whiffed but the hijack is on hearts.

I don't think you can bet hard enough to move anyone off their hand without committing yourself to a terrible holding. You might be ahead of one villain here, but not two. I check muck and take my medicine.

[David_Nicoson 1]

So, I should wait for a better spot?

[mtdesmoines 2]

So, I should wait for a better spot?

You optimistically put the hijack on hearts and optimistically put the BB on a whiff. That's all pretty optimistic. Again, you can't bet enough to bet them off their hands without shoving and finding yourself drawing to a nine. There are "better spots" for you to put your chips in play.

[Zach6668 513]

David:"You can't bet enough to bet them off their hands."Discuss. I don't know how to approach this one yet.

[mtdesmoines 2]

"You can't bet enough to bet them off their hands." without shoving and finding yourself drawing to a nine

[Acid_Knight 2]

You optimistically put the hijack on hearts and optimistically put the BB on a whiff. That's all pretty optimistic. Again, you can't bet enough to bet them off their hands without shoving and finding yourself drawing to a nine. There are "better spots" for you to put your chips in play.

I think the HJ's range is wider here, but I think we can pretty confidently put the BB on a whiff or at least a hand like 99 that doesn't wanna get too invested.I just hate betting the turn here becuase your line doesn't look very credible at all for a very big hand and if either of the other players pick up on that, you're gonna have some problems. I just am pretty sure that you'd never play a set in this manner (flatcalling that weak flop lead with 3 players in the pot), but I guess your opponents might not know this.I really think your best option is to check and see what develops.

[Zach6668 513]

mtdesmoines - I don't think we're trying to turn our hand into a bluff here. We aren't trying to bet anyone off their hands.

[David_Nicoson 1]

You optimistically put the hijack on hearts and optimistically put the BB on a whiff. That's all pretty optimistic. Again, you can't bet enough to bet them off their hands without shoving and finding yourself drawing to a nine. There are "better spots" for you to put your chips in play.

I think there's a lot of evidence that the BB hates his hand here. He makes a token c-bet on a coordinated board and then checks the turn. It's possible that I'm crushed by a set or a T9, but I'm mostly going to have 7-9 outs here, imho.

[No_Neck 0]

I think there's a lot of evidence that the BB hates his hand here. He makes a token c-bet on a coordinated board and then checks the turn. It's possible that I'm crushed by a set or a T9, but I'm mostly going to have 7-9 outs here, imho.

I tend to check behind in spots like this where I am really not sure where I am in the hand. I am either wa/wb but I have some draws to a disguised nut hand. Take the free card.

[mtdesmoines 2]

mtdesmoines - I don't think we're trying to turn our hand into a bluff here. We aren't trying to bet anyone off their hands.

What are we trying to accomplish? We're stuck in a pot raised twice with two other villains who subsequently called a flop bet. We have second pair, no kicker, a thin draw and a coordinating board and we don't really have position. That fishy smell is coming from us.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I don't think you can bet hard enough to move anyone off their hand without committing yourself to a terrible holding.

There are a lot of pretty good hands (e.g., A 2 , K Q , 5 6 ) that I can bet for value against. I'd love for any of these hands to fold, I profit when they call, but I hate for them to get a free river.I guess I don't believe this is a terrible holding.

[Zach6668 513]

What are we trying to accomplish?We want to gain value from worse hands, and put in a minimal amount of money when we are behind, and/or draw profitably. That's poker.I just don't understand "You can't bet enough to bet them off their hands". That means you're thinking about turning a hand with some showdown value into a bluff. That's just not smart poker, usually. I just want to know where you're coming from with such a weird statement in this particular hand.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I tend to check behind in spots like this where I am really not sure where I am in the hand. I am either wa/wb but I have some draws to a disguised nut hand. Take the free card.

I don't think I have any nut outs.

[Acid_Knight 2]

What are we trying to accomplish? We're stuck in a pot raised twice with two other villains who subsequently called a flop bet. We have second pair, no kicker, a thin draw and a coordinating board and we don't really have position. That fishy smell is coming from us.

It's a matter of whether or not we're in a +EV situation or not. There is a very good chane that our 2nd pair, no kicker is the best hand here. If it is, we'd like to figure out how to get to showdown with it and get any value that we can along the way.

[Zach6668 513]

mtdesmoines - have you ever played a significant amount of limit hold'em, or studied that game extensively?

[David_Nicoson 1]

I just hate betting the turn here becuase your line doesn't look very credible at all for a very big hand and if either of the other players pick up on that, you're gonna have some problems.

It doesn't look like T9?

[mtdesmoines 2]

What are we trying to accomplish?We want to gain value from worse hands, and put in a minimal amount of money when we are behind, and/or draw profitably. That's poker.I just don't understand "You can't bet enough to bet them off their hands". That means you're thinking about turning a hand with some showdown value into a bluff. That's just not smart poker, usually. I just want to know where you're coming from with such a weird statement in this particular hand.

I guess I'm not sure I agree we have showdown value.

[Zach6668 513]

I guess I'm not sure I agree we have showdown value.

You think we are behind 100% of the time, and drawing dead?

[mtdesmoines 2]

mtdesmoines - have you ever played a significant amount of limit hold'em, or studied that game extensively?

Explain why you ask.

[Acid_Knight 2]

It doesn't look like T9?

To them - Are you ever raising T9 up front? I guess that it could be in your range, but I wouldn't often assume it is if I'm one of the other players because I'd imagine that they've never seen you raise a hand like that up front. Am I assuming too much here from your previous play/posts?

[Zach6668 513]

Explain why you ask.

I'm just curious because I think LHE really helps build the fundamentals of poker theory that I find that you've often mixed up in your posts.