Is This Line Believable?

[waylander11 0]

Free bar league poker tournament 10,000 starting chips blinds up every 15 minutes 8handedblinds 400-800Hero has 9500, playing pretty LAG but showdowns have been solid handsVillain has ~ 15000 Hero is in cuttoff with 10 7o, villain is in seat to hero's right. 2 calls, villain calls, hero calls, sb folds, bb checks pot=4400flop4 6 9 rainbowcheck, check, villain bets 1600 , hero calls, bb foldspot= 7600turn is a K Villain bets 1600, hero goes all in for 5900 morepot=16,700 I know villain has a 9 but do i have enough to put him off the hand and is my play reasonable enough to have a K here?

[biff_goods 0]

fold pffold flopfold turn

[waylander11 0]

fold pffold flopfold turn

I know i have no business being in the hand, what i'm saying is, assuming you don't know what my cards are is a king or two pair believable.

[throwemaway 0]

Why would you float the flop with a king in your hand? That makes no sense especially since it is a rainbow flop..Now if your trying to rep a flopped set, then that makes a little more sense..His weak bets make me think there is a decent chance this bluff would work, although I would still be reticent to try it

[roadie1385 0]

you had 11 1/2 BBs before the hand started and you limped with 7 10os..? that'd be the first mistake.. and then the call on the flop for 1600 leaving 7900 on a gutshot and maybe an over? the guy can hardly fold to your bet.. not a very good play at all..

[radmanjeff 0]

Wouldn't you want someone to be putting you on a set? Instead of a lousy king? I suppose your line is believable but I would have to know whether or not the villain is a station that will call with just a 9 in that spot...

[Sick Boy 0]

I dont get it, why would you risk 1600 chips on a gutshot? MAYBE i can understand that you got impatient and wanted to see the flop and thats why you called pre, but wtf? Why would you even play 10/7o??? And why would you call the flop?? And why would you commit all your chips on the turn in the hopes that he's not holding anything???I'm not the best player in the world but this sounds like an amateur play to me. Can someone please explain to me why OP even played this hand pre, much less on the flop bet? I'm just trying to figure this out, maybe there's something I'm not catching here...

[simo_8ball 0]

Deleted.Stupid mate added dumb stuff.

[dtblizz 0]

Not sure you have any fold equity here....it is bar poker and the pot is huge. No your line does not look like a king unless they have watched you donk off on the flop with k-x on that board. Instead as a LAG it looks like you floated the flop and tried to steal on the turn.

[simo_8ball 0]

I dont get it, why would you risk 1600 chips on a gutshot? MAYBE i can understand that you got impatient and wanted to see the flop and thats why you called pre, but wtf? Why would you even play 10/7o??? And why would you call the flop?? And why would you commit all your chips on the turn in the hopes that he's not holding anything???I'm not the best player in the world but this sounds like an amateur play to me. Can someone please explain to me why OP even played this hand pre, much less on the flop bet? I'm just trying to figure this out, maybe there's something I'm not catching here...

This is why you shouldn't put your hopes on being a pro yet. I know you want to learn, and I know you're set on being a pro, but if you don't understand why hero took this line, and the thought that went into it then you are nowhere near good enough to be successful yet.You need to understand these thought processes in order to attempt to exploit them. You need to understand not just what moves people make, but why they make the moves they do. It doesn't matter if it's idiotic or whether it's genius. If you know how they think you know how they play. Your thought process appears to be quite one-dimensional.1st Level thinking: What is my hand, and how strong is it?2nd Level thinking: What is my opponent's hand and how strong is it? How will he be playing those hands?3rd: What does my opponent think I have? How does he expect me to play those hands?4th: What does my opponent think I'm putting him on? How does he expect me to read his bets?5th: What does my opponent think I'm reading my own range as from his perspective? What does he think my bets represent?etc.etc.In this hand you're thinking 1st level. We have a gutshot straight draw. That's not very strong, so I should fold. Nice. Simple.Let's look at the second level. What is our opponent's range on the flop? It's not a huge bet. Probably a 9. Maybe a 6. Maybe a draw. Maybe air. Maybe a set. Hard to say. He could be strong. He could be weak. Unless he has a set, there are probably a lot of scare cards to come on the turn. He's out of position too, so there's a decent chence he's going to check/fold with a weaker hand. We could raise and he'd fold a fair amount of the time, or we could call and then bet the turn if he checks (known as 'floating' the flop). We aren't playing our own hand here particularly, we are playing purely against our opponent's hand. We do have 4 outs to a straight and 3 outs for a better top pair, so we do have some outs to add to our equity. This is roughly where the OP is IMO. At this level we decide to call because our opponent's range is likely to be vulnerable.Ok, now we'll go to the third level. This is unimportant if we've folded obviously, so we'll take this from the point at which we've called. He's seen us limp preflop, and flat call a flop bet. We could easily have a 9, although we would probably shove with that. We could have a small pocket pair, or a hand like 78. We could have a set too. The turn doesn't look like it's going to hit us unless we have K9 (which shoves the flop) or K6, which is a tiny part of our range. When we shove the turn he has to call $5900 into $16700, so it's giving him a great price. This is a line we probably take with a set or with two pair, and occasionally with A6/A9. We could also have a draw of some sort trying to pounce on what appears to be a weak bet. The question is, if we liked our hand now, why wouldn't we shove the flop? If he's thinking on the third level, he should see that we can't have an overpair, and we probably shove the flop with a 9. Realistically we have a set, a six or some kind of draw. If he has a 9 he can easily call here.At this level we decide to fold the flop and the turn because we haven't got the fold equity we need on the turn to make the flop float profitable.It all gets blurry after that, but I'll summarise:4th level: Villain thinks we are reading him for a hand that he isn't likely to fold. Villain understands our play at the 3rd level and knows we aren't shoving the turn weak. He is now check/folding some of his hands on the turn. At this level we can call the flop because we have the fold equity back.5th level: Villain knows we realise all of the above. He knows that we know he is folding some hands on the turn, so our fancy plays come back into our range. At this level we once again fold the flop.The problem in all of this is in knowing where your opponent is. If you're thinking one level above your opponent then you will beat him. If you're thinking 2 levels above then you'll lose. If your opponent only knows his own cards and is thinking 1st level, your best strategy is to think 2nd level. You simply read your opponent and make the best move against his hand. Example:You have a flush draw on a 678 flop, and you see your opponent has AA (somehow, it's not important). Your opponent bets out (again, very basic and generic but it serves its purpose). You should either call or shove.Level 1: "He has me beat, I should call and try to hit"Level 2: "If I shove, my opponent will think I have a big hand and might fold - I should shove"Level 3: "My opponent will have expected me to shove a draw to rep a big hand, so will call more readily - I should call and play it cheaply"Level 4: "He knows I expect him to call a shove (he will read it as a semibluff), so he will understand that (in knowing this) I'm only going to push big hands - I should shove and he will fold, incorrectly putting me on a big hand"etc.It gets very complicated with "I know he knows that I know he knows that I know....."You can see that your correct move depends entirely on what level your opponent is thinking. One level above and you make the right move, two levels above and you make the wrong move.In actual fact with this hand, its a "free bar league", so I expect most people were playing pretty much 1st level, occasionally pondering what someone else might have briefly before dismissing their ideas and concentrating back on whether their two cards have made a pair or better. They will mostly be playing their own hands, and you shouldn't expect someone to fold a nine here on the turn getting 3:1 odds. Fold preflop, fold the flop and fold the turn.

[dlingdling 0]

You need to understand these thought processes in order to attempt to exploit them. You need to understand not just what moves people make, but why they make the moves they do. It doesn't matter if it's idiotic or whether it's genius. If you know how they think you know how they play. Your thought process appears to be quite one-dimensional.1st Level thinking: What is my hand, and how strong is it?2nd Level thinking: What is my opponent's hand and how strong is it? How will he be playing those hands?3rd: What does my opponent think I have? How does he expect me to play those hands?4th: What does my opponent think I'm putting him on? How does he expect me to read his bets?5th: What does my opponent think I'm reading my own range as from his perspective? What does he think my bets represent?etc.etc....

FCP rocks because of posts like this!

[Sick Boy 0]

This is why you shouldn't put your hopes on being a pro yet. I know you want to learn, and I know you're set on being a pro, but if you don't understand why hero took this line, and the thought that went into it then you are nowhere near good enough to be successful yet.You need to understand these thought processes in order to attempt to exploit them. You need to understand not just what moves people make, but why they make the moves they do. It doesn't matter if it's idiotic or whether it's genius. If you know how they think you know how they play. Your thought process appears to be quite one-dimensional.1st Level thinking: What is my hand, and how strong is it?2nd Level thinking: What is my opponent's hand and how strong is it? How will he be playing those hands?3rd: What does my opponent think I have? How does he expect me to play those hands?4th: What does my opponent think I'm putting him on? How does he expect me to read his bets?5th: What does my opponent think I'm reading my own range as from his perspective? What does he think my bets represent?etc.etc.In this hand you're thinking 1st level. We have a gutshot straight draw. That's not very strong, so I should fold. Nice. Simple.Let's look at the second level. What is our opponent's range on the flop? It's not a huge bet. Probably a 9. Maybe a 6. Maybe a draw. Maybe air. Maybe a set. Hard to say. He could be strong. He could be weak. Unless he has a set, there are probably a lot of scare cards to come on the turn. He's out of position too, so there's a decent chence he's going to check/fold with a weaker hand. We could raise and he'd fold a fair amount of the time, or we could call and then bet the turn if he checks (known as 'floating' the flop). We aren't playing our own hand here particularly, we are playing purely against our opponent's hand. We do have 4 outs to a straight and 3 outs for a better top pair, so we do have some outs to add to our equity. This is roughly where the OP is IMO. At this level we decide to call because our opponent's range is likely to be vulnerable.Ok, now we'll go to the third level. This is unimportant if we've folded obviously, so we'll take this from the point at which we've called. He's seen us limp preflop, and flat call a flop bet. We could easily have a 9, although we would probably shove with that. We could have a small pocket pair, or a hand like 78. We could have a set too. The turn doesn't look like it's going to hit us unless we have K9 (which shoves the flop) or K6, which is a tiny part of our range. When we shove the turn he has to call $5900 into $16700, so it's giving him a great price. This is a line we probably take with a set or with two pair, and occasionally with A6/A9. We could also have a draw of some sort trying to pounce on what appears to be a weak bet. The question is, if we liked our hand now, why wouldn't we shove the flop? If he's thinking on the third level, he should see that we can't have an overpair, and we probably shove the flop with a 9. Realistically we have a set, a six or some kind of draw. If he has a 9 he can easily call here.At this level we decide to fold the flop and the turn because we haven't got the fold equity we need on the turn to make the flop float profitable.It all gets blurry after that, but I'll summarise:4th level: Villain thinks we are reading him for a hand that he isn't likely to fold. Villain understands our play at the 3rd level and knows we aren't shoving the turn weak. He is now check/folding some of his hands on the turn. At this level we can call the flop because we have the fold equity back.5th level: Villain knows we realise all of the above. He knows that we know he is folding some hands on the turn, so our fancy plays come back into our range. At this level we once again fold the flop.The problem in all of this is in knowing where your opponent is. If you're thinking one level above your opponent then you will beat him. If you're thinking 2 levels above then you'll lose. If your opponent only knows his own cards and is thinking 1st level, your best strategy is to think 2nd level. You simply read your opponent and make the best move against his hand. Example:You have a flush draw on a 678 flop, and you see your opponent has AA (somehow, it's not important). Your opponent bets out (again, very basic and generic but it serves its purpose). You should either call or shove.Level 1: "He has me beat, I should call and try to hit"Level 2: "If I shove, my opponent will think I have a big hand and might fold - I should shove"Level 3: "My opponent will have expected me to shove a draw to rep a big hand, so will call more readily - I should call and play it cheaply"Level 4: "He knows I expect him to call a shove (he will read it as a semibluff), so he will understand that (in knowing this) I'm only going to push big hands - I should shove and he will fold, incorrectly putting me on a big hand"etc.It gets very complicated with "I know he knows that I know he knows that I know....."You can see that your correct move depends entirely on what level your opponent is thinking. One level above and you make the right move, two levels above and you make the wrong move.In actual fact with this hand, its a "free bar league", so I expect most people were playing pretty much 1st level, occasionally pondering what someone else might have briefly before dismissing their ideas and concentrating back on whether their two cards have made a pair or better. They will mostly be playing their own hands, and you shouldn't expect someone to fold a nine here on the turn getting 3:1 odds. Fold preflop, fold the flop and fold the turn.

I never said I was anywhere near good enough.(yet..)I would never play like this, its not my style. I guess other people do and that post was a huge help. What i was trying to say is I dont get why anyone would want to play like that, not that I dont get the play.Thanks Simo. Go write for a poker magazine and stop showing how much better you are than me with these long ass complecated articles! lol (just kidding, thanks alot)

[waylander11 0]

ok, i understand that the people playing in this game don't really know how to play and are all level 1 thinkers. This is why i play a lot of hands before the flop and float a lot. Obviously if i play this way against real players i will get crushed and throw away all of my chips. My idea behind playing so much is i'll be able to make the most out of any hand i get and the blind structure is so fast that if i don't play a lot of hands any edge i have over these players will get eaten away by the blinds. I might be wrong. Any strategy advice on playing in a game like this?

[Actuary 3]

Fold preflop, fold the flop and fold the turn.

one of the best posts ever.

[jmkiser 0]

Fold preflop, fold the flop and fold the turn.

WowI don't play no limit, but I think I just became an expert after reading this post.Simo is now one of my official FCP poker knowledge banks. If I ever start playing NL, I'm looking at you man!

[bigcoled 1]

This is why you shouldn't put your hopes on being a pro yet. I know you want to learn, and I know you're set on being a pro, but if you don't understand why hero took this line, and the thought that went into it then you are nowhere near good enough to be successful yet.You need to understand these thought processes in order to attempt to exploit them. You need to understand not just what moves people make, but why they make the moves they do. It doesn't matter if it's idiotic or whether it's genius. If you know how they think you know how they play. Your thought process appears to be quite one-dimensional.1st Level thinking: What is my hand, and how strong is it?2nd Level thinking: What is my opponent's hand and how strong is it? How will he be playing those hands?3rd: What does my opponent think I have? How does he expect me to play those hands?4th: What does my opponent think I'm putting him on? How does he expect me to read his bets?5th: What does my opponent think I'm reading my own range as from his perspective? What does he think my bets represent?etc.etc.In this hand you're thinking 1st level. We have a gutshot straight draw. That's not very strong, so I should fold. Nice. Simple.Let's look at the second level. What is our opponent's range on the flop? It's not a huge bet. Probably a 9. Maybe a 6. Maybe a draw. Maybe air. Maybe a set. Hard to say. He could be strong. He could be weak. Unless he has a set, there are probably a lot of scare cards to come on the turn. He's out of position too, so there's a decent chence he's going to check/fold with a weaker hand. We could raise and he'd fold a fair amount of the time, or we could call and then bet the turn if he checks (known as 'floating' the flop). We aren't playing our own hand here particularly, we are playing purely against our opponent's hand. We do have 4 outs to a straight and 3 outs for a better top pair, so we do have some outs to add to our equity. This is roughly where the OP is IMO. At this level we decide to call because our opponent's range is likely to be vulnerable.Ok, now we'll go to the third level. This is unimportant if we've folded obviously, so we'll take this from the point at which we've called. He's seen us limp preflop, and flat call a flop bet. We could easily have a 9, although we would probably shove with that. We could have a small pocket pair, or a hand like 78. We could have a set too. The turn doesn't look like it's going to hit us unless we have K9 (which shoves the flop) or K6, which is a tiny part of our range. When we shove the turn he has to call $5900 into $16700, so it's giving him a great price. This is a line we probably take with a set or with two pair, and occasionally with A6/A9. We could also have a draw of some sort trying to pounce on what appears to be a weak bet. The question is, if we liked our hand now, why wouldn't we shove the flop? If he's thinking on the third level, he should see that we can't have an overpair, and we probably shove the flop with a 9. Realistically we have a set, a six or some kind of draw. If he has a 9 he can easily call here.At this level we decide to fold the flop and the turn because we haven't got the fold equity we need on the turn to make the flop float profitable.It all gets blurry after that, but I'll summarise:4th level: Villain thinks we are reading him for a hand that he isn't likely to fold. Villain understands our play at the 3rd level and knows we aren't shoving the turn weak. He is now check/folding some of his hands on the turn. At this level we can call the flop because we have the fold equity back.5th level: Villain knows we realise all of the above. He knows that we know he is folding some hands on the turn, so our fancy plays come back into our range. At this level we once again fold the flop.The problem in all of this is in knowing where your opponent is. If you're thinking one level above your opponent then you will beat him. If you're thinking 2 levels above then you'll lose. If your opponent only knows his own cards and is thinking 1st level, your best strategy is to think 2nd level. You simply read your opponent and make the best move against his hand. Example:You have a flush draw on a 678 flop, and you see your opponent has AA (somehow, it's not important). Your opponent bets out (again, very basic and generic but it serves its purpose). You should either call or shove.Level 1: "He has me beat, I should call and try to hit"Level 2: "If I shove, my opponent will think I have a big hand and might fold - I should shove"Level 3: "My opponent will have expected me to shove a draw to rep a big hand, so will call more readily - I should call and play it cheaply"Level 4: "He knows I expect him to call a shove (he will read it as a semibluff), so he will understand that (in knowing this) I'm only going to push big hands - I should shove and he will fold, incorrectly putting me on a big hand"etc.It gets very complicated with "I know he knows that I know he knows that I know....."You can see that your correct move depends entirely on what level your opponent is thinking. One level above and you make the right move, two levels above and you make the wrong move.In actual fact with this hand, its a "free bar league", so I expect most people were playing pretty much 1st level, occasionally pondering what someone else might have briefly before dismissing their ideas and concentrating back on whether their two cards have made a pair or better. They will mostly be playing their own hands, and you shouldn't expect someone to fold a nine here on the turn getting 3:1 odds. Fold preflop, fold the flop and fold the turn.

Well Played, Sir

[sactownjoey 0]

ok, i understand that the people playing in this game don't really know how to play and are all level 1 thinkers. This is why i play a lot of hands before the flop and float a lot. Obviously if i play this way against real players i will get crushed and throw away all of my chips. My idea behind playing so much is i'll be able to make the most out of any hand i get and the blind structure is so fast that if i don't play a lot of hands any edge i have over these players will get eaten away by the blinds. I might be wrong. Any strategy advice on playing in a game like this?

I think the key to playing people who "don't really know how to play" is getting them to give you all their chips when they have marginal hands and you are strong. I generally don't play garbage (especially OOP) against these players because they can't be bluffed, they don't understand position/odds/etc. and they frequently overvalue hands. Playing/floating garbage hoping to pick up the pot on a bluff against someone who always thinks their pair is good is a leak, IMO.