54 replies to this topic

[David_Nicoson]

Bodog 1/2 NLHE 9-handed

Stacks
MP ($114.00) (36/7 after 14 hands)
Button ($267.00) (35/2 after 48 hands)
SB ($176.00)
BB ($177.00)
Hero ($198.00)
UTG+1 ($203.50)

Preflop
Hero raises to $5.00 with Q Q .UTG+1 calls $5.00. 1 fold. MP calls $5.00 1 fold. Button calls $5.00. SB calls $4.00. BB calls $3.00.

FLOP ($30)
T 8 9
SB checks. BB checks. Hero bets $30.00. UTG+1 folds. MP goes all in $109. Button calls $109.00. SB folds. BB folds. Hero ??

[craiger]

I throw my queens away so fast...and then go get a rum & coke.

Put it this way...

At least one of them has you beat. All you can hope for if you call is him having A-10...in which case you would be dodging another 10 or an A...and you are probably dodging any club as well. I'm also guessing a Q is no good to you, since that means a J has a straight...and do you really want to re-draw for most of your chips? Pick a better spot. Sick hand.

[tskillz187]

I muck, I'd raise bigger preflop

[NonZeroPossibility]

easy fold

[MinhLyFan]

yeah man, I think 8 pre flop would have been much better. Instafold for sure.

[Royal_Tour]

I muck, I'd raise bigger preflop

agree,

In UTG with queens at fullring, try raising more or limping to disguise them. raising 5 only builds a pot that you cant control from OOP.

in this spot with 4 or 5 players behind i wouldnt even lead out. Its too scary with 2 red queens. at best you might be a coin flip vs 1 random player who calls your flop bet, but more often probably totally dominated now.

[Sheiky]

That really sucks balls.

[David_Nicoson]

I don't have any problem with a bigger opener, but we can't really discuss it without the context of the whole preflop strategy. I generally open for 2.5x UTG with everything else I play, too, so limping with QQ doesn't disguise it unless I change the whole strategy. If I open for 4x with everything, I can't play as many hands profitably.

I guess that limp and sometimes reraise can work, but I'm not so much a fan of it. I'd rather put in the third raise with my big hand than the second. And in general I like to have the initiative on the flop rather than limping or limp/calling.

[tskillz187]

I don't have any problem with a bigger opener, but we can't really discuss it without the context of the whole preflop strategy. I generally open for 2.5x UTG with everything else I play, too, so limping with QQ doesn't disguise it unless I change the whole strategy. If I open for 4x with everything, I can't play as many hands profitably.

I guess that limp and sometimes reraise can work, but I'm not so much a fan of it. I'd rather put in the third raise with my big hand than the second. And in general I like to have the initiative on the flop rather than limping or limp/calling.

I don't think a 2.5x opener UTG is sound. 4x for everything and tightning your range seems like a much more reasonable solution, IMO.

[David_Nicoson]

Chris Ferguson article and RGP discussion with respect to opener size


Ferguson's article, since the link in that discussion is broken.

One of the most common mistakes in No-Limit Hold 'em is coming in for a
raise that's too big. In early position, you want to keep your raises
at about two times the big blind. With four to six players to act
behind you when you're in middle position, raise to about two and a
half big blinds, and raise to about three times the big blind from late
position.

If you're representing a big hand by raising from early position, it
stands to reason that you'll only get played with by huge hands. Why
risk four, five or more bets to win only one and a half bets in the
blinds when you're often going to be running into monsters along the
way? If you're holding A-Q rather than A-A and a player comes over the
top, you can lay it down without having risked much.

Edited by David_Nicoson, 24 November 2007 - 03:36 PM.

[tskillz187]

Chris Ferguson article and RGP discussion with respect to opener size

Hmm... that brings me to a random spot in the discussion and I can't find Chris Ferguson talking about it. I do see your post from 2+ yrs ago though, that's kind of cool. I think raising less in EP and more in LP is flawed and if I were going to change the sizes of my raise it would be the exact opposite.

What I did see was the argument that small in EP because you're representing a big hand and big hands are coming over the top of 2xbb and 4xbb raises just the same. But you are also starting calling chains when someone calls you and the rest of the table is getting great odds to play all the while with you in one of the worst positions for the entire hand.

I think most good players raise more from EP for obvious reasons, it weeds out bad hands and charges inferior hands and also helps you to define villain's hand.

[Sheiky]

I cannot believe Chris Ferguson wrote that.

That logic is really really wrong.

[David_Nicoson]

I cannot believe Chris Ferguson wrote that.

That logic is really really wrong.

What's the counter argument?

[David_Nicoson]

With respect to the actual hand, note that we can be behind here and still have a lot of equity.

CODE

Board: Tc 8c 9s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.788% 37.58% 01.21% 744 24.00 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 61.212% 60.00% 01.21% 1188 24.00 { T9s }

[Sheiky]

A book could be written on why that is wrong, but i don't have so long so here's my summary-

Min raising offers people great odds to calls and sets of a calling train behind you. Assume you're UTG and a 9-handed table.

50/100 blinds. You min-raise, the player next to act calls, there's no 550 in the pot and the next player has to call 200 into a 550 pot, so he calls. The player behind him now has to call 200 into a 750 pot!!!!! You simple can't give players those odds to call PF. Any hand that you're playing from UTG is best suited to be played against 1-2 opponents, min raising A) Creates multiway pots which carry a ton of RIO for any UTG raising hand and Gives you no initiative in the pot.

Raising 4BBs UTG is more like to get the pot heads and maximise your equity aswells giving you the chance to C-bet and take a 8/9BB pot down on the flop when you miss.

I'm tired, but i will continue to edit this post with more reason not to min raise.

EDIT 1: Taken from 2+2

Most of your money at micro stakes comes from two sources. The preflop raise followed by a cbet bet on the flop and pounding calling machines for as big a bet as you can get away with on every street. So let's take a look at these two situations.

(I'd like to note that these are over simplified but serve to prove a point)

1. C-bets

If you could guarantee that your opponents would fold the flop every time you cbet for any amount then you'd want as much money in the pot already and to then make a tiny bet to pick up the huge pot. Sadly this isn't the case because there is an upper limit to what most limping donkeys will call and the amount you need to bet to get them to lay down on the flop.

At a typical micro stakes table you will find the limpers happy to call raises up to around the 4BB + 1 per limper range. After that the amount they fold goes up dramatically, so what we are doing is putting as much as we can in the pot now so we can take an equal amount from them on the flop with our cbets. If you were to bet 3BB + 1 per limper when you could be making it 4BB then you are missing 1BB every time you take it with the cbet.


2. Pounding calling stations

You have AK and are up against a calling machine with KQ and you know that he can't let go of top pair unless you overbet the pot. Voila! The magic of creating whatever situation I want brings a flop of K82 rainbow. He checks, you pot it, he calls and the turn blanks. He checks, you pot it, he calls and the river blanks. You get as much as you can into the pot.

So how much is as much as you can?

Let's imagine the SB disappears in rake and that villain is in the BB to make the numbers easier. You raise the button to 3BB and he calls (pot is 6BB).

Going by the sequence above -

Flop (6BB) -> You bet 6BB he calls 6BB.
Turn (18BB) -> You bet 18BB he calls 18BB.
River (54BB) -> You bet 54BB he calls 54BB.

You take just over 80BBs from him but have to pot every street to do it. But when was the last time you were able to pot *every* street against someone like this?

Now imagine the same thing happens but you raise to 4BB preflop and he calls.

Flop (8BB) -> You bet 8BB, he calls 8BB.
Turn (24BB) -> You bet 24BB, he calls 24BB.
River (72BB) -> You push and he calls.

By raising 1BB more preflop we were able to pound the calling station for nearly 20BB more by the end (assuming 100BB stacks of course).

Yes, these numbers and situations are greatly simplified but hopefully they show the point of squeezing out that extra big blind preflop and why 4BB+1 per limper is better than 3BB+1per limper.

[AimHigher]

I don't have any problem with a bigger opener, but we can't really discuss it without the context of the whole preflop strategy. I generally open for 2.5x UTG with everything else I play, too, so limping with QQ doesn't disguise it unless I change the whole strategy. If I open for 4x with everything, I can't play as many hands profitably.

I guess that limp and sometimes reraise can work, but I'm not so much a fan of it. I'd rather put in the third raise with my big hand than the second. And in general I like to have the initiative on the flop rather than limping or limp/calling.

Are you doing this from all positions or just UTG/EP exclusively? If you have both a wide range and small sized raises you are just enticing other players to give you action. Over an extended period of time surely situations like this will occur because the table is adjusting to your range and the small raises are creating favorable odds for the other players.

[David_Nicoson]

Are you doing this from all positions or just UTG/EP exclusively? If you have both a wide range and small sized raises you are just enticing other players to give you action. Over an extended period of time surely situations like this will occur because the table is adjusting to your range and the small raises are creating favorable odds for the other players.

Just early position. I raise the size of the pot when I raise limpers and open for 3x in middle position and 3.5x in late.

[No_Neck]

You guys focus way too much on preflop play.

You have to muck after the button calls.

[David_Nicoson]

Sheiky:

This hand notwithstanding, I don't expect to get a ton of action from this raise at these stakes online. There's not much we can do at 100bb to destroy the implied odds of the callers. Unless we open for 10x or more, then the pairs are going to call. I'm just attacking their implied odds by trying not to pay them off when they hit.

These aren't micro stakes in my estimation. If the villains are calling big raises with random crap, then I support a bigger opener for value.

I don't think I can raise to 4x UTG with 77 or 88 without spewing. So then I guess I'm limping with a few hands like those and sometimes aces as well. I feel that I'm leaving a ton of money on the table when I limp with AA, even when there is a raise from late position.

[tskillz187]

You guys focus way too much on preflop play.

You have to muck after the button calls.

I think 80% of all leaks I can find in my game are because of passive preflop play.

I don't think I can raise to 4x UTG with 77 or 88 without spewing. So then I guess I'm limping with a few hands like those and sometimes aces as well. I feel that I'm leaving a ton of money on the table when I limp with AA, even when there is a raise from late position.

I think if you opened 77+ AJ+ A9ss+ and KQss at 4xbb and folded everything else you wouldn't be spewing. 77 and 88 are at the very bottom of the opening range and villains must account for your stronger hands.