18 replies to this topic

[Pearl]

NL, 5k behind cash gameyou are in late position holding 7s 8s.mid position raises to 300. all folded to you. you, being a lover of those rags, called because u believe you can outplay the raiser depending on his behavior post flop (you put him on AK currently). button called. all folded. so 3 players.flop came Ks 6s Js. Voila.P1 checks.your turn to bet.what is considered the right amount (checking is wrong. so question is whats the bet?)unless you know what you are talking about, please dont comment. thanks.

[Pearl]

by the way, i ended u betting 1200 for that pot to win it right there.button folded.P1 raised me all in and i called (dearly praying he does not have As Qs).he had As Kd.

[CoreyBrown]

Varied stabs at this.I am one to "take it down now" because I have been over shot so many times. You can overbet the pot and make it look like a pure steal, and you might get a caller or a raiser because of this. You can bet the pot and probably just take it down there.Or bet around 3/4 the pot, have a decent shot at taking it down, but if a call comes you can't be too worried unless another spade hits, or the board pairs. Yes an over flush is possible, but dems duh apples.**I'd overbet the pot.**His all in is pretty neat though. TPTK with Nut flush draw. I'm just going to assume this turned out bad for you.

[Pearl]

i dont want to say the outcome because i want what the correct process/bet is first. many people think if they win for 2 weeks, they must be doing something right in poker (focusing on the outcome) that may just be pure luck (i used to be one, after i went on a 3 month lucky streak winning a real amount of money, i felt like i was gus hansen or something). i've seen doyle checked his K high made-flush on flop vs 2 opponents in a tourney - giving a 'free card' so to speak from late position. maybe the correct is to check and bet when turn card is a blank - at which time, (As Kd) will be less likely to put you all in given there is only one card left. in a tourney where you dont want to be kicked out on small flush, that may be the correct play. i struggle with the concept here. i personally agree with overbetting the pot. but like i said, i am no expert other than someone who has been so far lucky- knock on wood.

[RtherBNvegas]

if it was me I would probably do about a 3/4 or possibly even match the pot. You definately wouldnt wanna give a free card here when you have the player on AK because that A may be the spade as it was. As far as the reference from Doyle he would say that there is nothing wrong with giving a player an extra card to catch up so you will get more action with your hand as long as that free card will not have a chance to bust you. As I said I would lean more toward the pot sized bet because if the price is right and the player has enough chips it would prolly be an easy call for him with top pair top kicker and the nut flush draw. You didnt say what kind of player he was but if it was a tight player he may lay this down with a decent bet instead of chasing the if he really believes you hit the flush. Most people will likely call you down though. Also I dunno what your image was at the table but if I was the opponent and put in a pre-flop raise you called and then when a scary flop hits you overbet the pot that much I would most likely put you on a steal maybe the flush and call you down with the pair and big draw.Really if you had put me on a mid-sized pair say JJ and that flop hit there is really no way I could call a big bet like that. I think depending on what type of player he was it may have been harder for him to call a pot-sized bet than it was to call a double the pot overbet. those are my thoughts

[Pearl]

in terms of table image, both the opponent and I are considered '?mixed' at our table, meaning we can raise with anything if we think we can outplay the opponent. we change styles and mix up quite a bit so my bet of the pot size could be seen as a steal as well as a strong hand. he sensed weakness in me for betting -stemming from the fact that i would check the nut flush, so the bet almost gave him the wrong impression -he read me dead wrong - he thought he was ahead.. hence the check raise to all-in. just so happend a spade hit the river. but such is poker.

[Random Fluke]

When I make a flush on the flop with two people behind me I usually check. I am hoping someone with 1 spade in their hand is going to make a semi-bluff at it and commit themself to the pot. I will then gladly go all in. At that point if he has the nut flush draw he is drawing to 7 outs giving him roughly a 28% chance to hit his flush and beat you. You will lose doing this sometimes, and when you do it sucks, but imo it is an effective move. This works best versus agressive opponents, but I find, at the limits I play (smaller than yours) it is effective.

[RtherBNvegas]

ehh damn river LOL. well if thats the case it really didnt matter what you were gonna bet since he'd call u down anyway. Well hes a 3-1 dog so just wait for the same scenario and maybe youll make a lil money off your 78 suited next time

[Eskimo]

I wouldn't check. I've made an Ace-high flush on the flop before and checked it. The turn card paired the board and I ended up losing to a full house. It kinda hit me back into reality. I thought i had made the nut, but i didn't. If it were me, i would bet around pot size.

[JFarrell20]

Well the King and Jack of spades are already on the board. This is a good thing. This means that if another spade comes on the community then you need to only worry about the Ace, Queen, 10, and 9 of spades. Slim chance that anyone has those. Honestly, I'd slowplay it. I don't think another spade is going to come off seeing as there are only 8 left in the deck. 4 of the spades left are under your 7 and 4 of them are above your 8. So, even if a spades comes off, there's still just a 50% chance that they will have you beat. I'd probably bet 1/2 the pot (I will call this slowplay b/c I'm pretty sure I'll get 1 caller). I'd check the turn and let them put a bet in (especially if its another King). I'd call, then on the river I'd probably bet pot or so.

[JFarrell20]

Pearl said:

we change styles and mix up quite a bit so my bet of the pot size could be seen as a steal as well as a strong hand. he sensed weakness in me for betting -stemming from the fact that i would check the nut flush, so the bet almost gave him the wrong impression -he read me dead wrong - he thought he was ahead.. hence the check raise to all-in.  just so happend a spade hit the river. but such is poker.

THIS IS WHY YOU CANNOT OVERBET! lol. Don't underestimate your oppoonents ability to mis-read you! You don't want him to unknowingly push all in on you-- this will just make the decision more difficult. Play it like I said in the previous post. Even if you don't want someone to suck out on you, you shouldn't overbet, it can look fishy to someone and they may move all in and get you wondering does he have As?

[Smasharoo]

you are in late position holding 7s 8s.mid position raises to 300. all folded to you. you, being a lover of those rags, called because u believe you can outplay the raiser depending on his behavior post flop (you put him on AK currently). button called. all folded. so 3 players.flop came Ks 6s Js. Voila.P1 checks.your turn to bet.what is considered the right amount (checking is wrong. so question is whats the bet?)unless you know what you are talking about, please dont comment. thanks.Without stack sizes it's impossible to answer this.Unless you offer enough information to answer what you're asking about please don't post.

[JeffG43]

One fact missing in your outline of the hand is the price of the blinds. You mentioned that it was a $5K NL game and that the initial bettor raised to $300. I'm assuming that is 3x or more sized raise. If it is, AA, KK, AK, QQ or JJ are the most likely hands (if it's a loose player, maybe something weaker - know your opponent). The caller behind may also have any of these or some other lower pair or suited connector like you, or possibly Axs. With the original raiser checking, to me, this either indicates that he is either very weak (QQ, TT, AJs) or very strong (KK, JJ, AA with the A of spades, or AK with the A of spades, or possibly AK without the A of spades) If he is weak with QQ or TT and scared of the K on the board, he will just fold to any bet, or possibly call if he has the Q of spades. If he is strong, he is planning to check raise you. In either case, you need to bet a nice sized bet to prevent QQ with the Q of spades from drawing the higher flush on you. In addition, if he did flop a set or AA/AK with the A of spades, he will likely raise, and if he doesn't, you want him to pay for his full house or nut flush draw.I personally would bet about a pot sized bet being content to take it right there, and if called, moving all in at the turn or moving all in at the flop if re-raised.Bottom line is that this is going to be a big winner (or big loser if your opponent draws out) for you or you will just win it at the flop if no one has anything, but the low flush is vulnerable to the full house and the 4 flush making a higher flush and you will be very reluctant to fold if the board pairs or if another spade hits. I say bet it fairly strong and get your money in while its highly likely that you have the best hand.Another factor to consider is how good/reckless is your opponent. It sounds like you played it perfectly over betting the pot a little making it look like you were trying to steal with a draw thereby inducing him to re-raise with AK. If you had been up against another opponent, he may have just called hoping you were on a draw and would slow down at the turn and if another spade hit or the board paired, you may slow down and he could get out without risking his whole stack. Some very tight players may even fold AK there with no spade, so over betting may not be the best play, but I think it's better to overbet there and scare off a potential caller than to underbet and let a drawer make his draw for cheap.

[Pearl]

Smasharoo said:

Without stack sizes it's impossible to answer this.Unless you offer enough information to answer what you're asking about please don't post.

read first before you talk garbage. else shut it.

[Pearl]

JeffG43 said:

One fact missing in your outline of the hand is the price of the blinds.  You mentioned that it was a $5K NL game and that the initial bettor raised to $300.  I'm assuming that is 3x or more sized raise.  

jeff, thanks for the post. i thought those are fairly standard. "25/50 blinds 100x bb behind as buy-in". also i dont see how a blind below 100 materially affects the decision - no one has opened pot yet and guy raised to 6x bb, (you cant play 100/100 blind with 5k behind, you can but its silly).

[Smasharoo]

read first before you talk garbage. else shut it.Let me be more clear.Were your stack and the opponent's stack of the same size?Do you have 5k and he has 1k? Do you have 5k and he has 50k?Makes a massive diffrence in what the correct bet is.Understand?

[Pearl]

oy, it says 5k behind NL. other people seem to get the fact that not much action has taken place before that hand and/or we have roughly about 5k behind each. i thought you went to the same school as i did in boston (judging from how arrogantly you talk on the forum). obviously not.

[Smasharoo]

oy, it says 5k behind NL. other people seem to get the fact that not much action has taken place before that hand and/or we have roughly about 5k behind each. i thought you went to the same school as i did in boston (judging from how arrogantly you talk on the forum). obviously not.To be honest it seems like other people didn't consider stack sizes.If it's even, I'd check behind here.Give him a chance to take a shot at the pot on the turn, possibly improving his hand enough to call a re-raise. You'd love to see an offsuit ace fall for example. Giving a free card here doesn't seem particularly dangerous. It's unlikely he woudn't have bet out with As at this limit, so if he does have AK it's probably without a spade. While a 4th spade might kill the action, I think it's a chance worth taking when you get more value fro him betting into you on the turn.I don't like betting out on the flop because evevn at 5k a lot of players are goinng to lay down AK there.You could try a big overbet feigning a bluff, but you run the risk of getting caught by an overflush if your read is off.

[Pearl]

i hear ya. i flip-flop between checking and betting.