17 replies to this topic

[Willing 2 Die]

Reads: Villian to my left in the BB is very solid. Normally plays 2-5 NL. Villian in LP is a huge donkey, very LAG, and has stacked off already several times, and likes to buy into the table with $50 red, $150 in white. My image is somewhat TAG.

My cards are KK.

Effective stacks:

LAG villian- $170
Solid Villian- $400
Hero- $ 300

Preflop: UTG raises to $5, 6 people call $5, Hero raises to $35, Villian in SB calls $35, Villian in LP calls $35.

(Pot~ $120)
Flop: Qs, 8h,7h


What is a good bet size here? Are we even contemplating a check to induce the LAG villian to make a stab at this? Also, several questions that i want to pose in this situation.



1) If we lead around $60-80, are we almost always calling off the rest of our chips to a reraise to Villian in the SB?

2) Regardless of any reads at the table, is this a hand we most likely are getting all of our chips in the middle if SB a) raises the flop B-) flats the flop bet?

[Snamuh]

Lead for 85-90, call a shove.

[DonkSlayer]

Lead for 85-90, call a shove.

I'm leading for a bit more and calling a shove.

[mtdesmoines]

Lead for 85-90, call a shove.

Yeah, pretty much.

[gfdsa146]

If LAG villian is as LAG as OP says he is, why would we prefer the lead over the c/r?

[David_Nicoson]

I'd raise more preflop.

I think the "solid" villain is playing this hand oddly. He's calling a big bet in comparison to your stack to play a multiway pot out of position.

As played, I'm OK stacking off on the flop. I'd bet the pot on the flop except that the LAG's shove doesn't reopen the betting. So I like betting 80 and hope the LAG raises.

[Temporary Nuts]

I'd raise more preflop.

I think the "solid" villain is playing this hand oddly. He's calling a big bet in comparison to your stack to play a multiway pot out of position.

Not if the solid villain has a low pp, he's getting juuuust the right odds to mine, and I think our hand is pretty transparent already

[David_Nicoson]

Not if the solid villain has a low pp, he's getting juuuust the right odds to mine, and I think our hand is pretty transparent already

Every once in awhile UTG has a hand he wants to push with. Then he just flushed $35. He needs needs a read on UTG to make this play break even and multiple players to stack off for him to show any profit. It think it's more likely that he just made a loose call. Maybe he forgot he wasn't playing 2/5?

[Jadaki]

I'd raise more preflop.

With a raise and 6 callers, a larger raise here should be put in here. Raising to 35 with 35 already in the pot is giving the first caller 2-1 and it just gets better for any callers behind that one.

Dave what amount do you advocate a raise to here?

[AcesOnFire]

Raise more preflop.

If you are almost certain the LAG is going to bet then you could check/raise. But then what might the solid villan do? What if he puts in a healthy bet and then gets reraised by the LAG? Still putting all the money in the pot?

Personally I prefer leading out here. 2/3+ pot.

[David_Nicoson]

Dave what amount do you advocate a raise to here?

50. More if weren't playing shallow.

Clearly we have either AA, KK, AK, or a lot of balls to reraise here. It will therefore be clear to the villains on a lot of flops that we can't have better than one pair. If someone wants to call here, I'm going to make it hurt preflop.

I don't think we should **** around with the second raise. Look at what happened in the Ivy (KK) vs. Booth (24s ?) hand.

[Jadaki]

50. More if weren't playing shallow.

For me this is more based on how the table is playing. Tight table I like 50, loose table I probably go as high as 75. I've been in this situation and found that I have been called by some really unusual holdings, crap like A8o.

[David_Nicoson]

For me this is more based on how the table is playing. Tight table I like 50, loose table I probably go as high as 75. I've been in this situation and found that I have been called by some really unusual holdings, crap like A8o.

That's reasonable. UTG's stack isn't listed; that's a variable as well. I shouldn't really have called this short, either.

[Willing 2 Die]

I don't think i played this hand optimally at all.

For some reason, I checked the flop (intending to check raise), hoping LAG villian would make a dumb move. Everyone checked.

The turn: 3s

Hero bets $45. (I know, its bad) Villian 1 takes his time, eventually calls $45, LAG villian in LP folds.

River: Jx

Hero?

[NoBBiR]

I'd raise more preflop.

I think the "solid" villain is playing this hand oddly. He's calling a big bet in comparison to your stack to play a multiway pot out of position.

As played, I'm OK stacking off on the flop. I'd bet the pot on the flop except that the LAG's shove doesn't reopen the betting. So I like betting 80 and hope the LAG raises.

50. More if weren't playing shallow.

Clearly we have either AA, KK, AK, or a lot of balls to reraise here. It will therefore be clear to the villains on a lot of flops that we can't have better than one pair. If someone wants to call here, I'm going to make it hurt preflop.

I don't think we should **** around with the second raise. Look at what happened in the Ivy (KK) vs. Booth (24s ?) hand.

This is exactly what I thought. $35 isn't enough.

Bet more or about half of your stack on the flop and call any shove. This is much easier if you've raised more preflop.

[whiterice714]

i'm not so sure i like checking to the field of flat callers after you put in the hefty 3bet preflop... lag just flat called a bunch of flat callers & then flat called again after BB flat called 3bet... he could have 2c3c or 55 or something & is shutting down & dumping unimproved no matter what...



it's obvious you have a large hand.. they know this when you make it ~19 big blinds PF... they obv have speculative enough hands to try to out draw you... they're probably astonished you gave them a free card to make their hand... i mean, i guess you induce a bet out of A Qs, maybe another Q, but they're gone the second you raise... also, have you seen the lag go crazy in multi way 3bet pots? i think that's a pretty big factor here as well... unless you've seen him go nuts on the flop in a similar spot, i dont think you can make this play w/ confidence that he'll bet...

& the way this was played, i can see BB having JJ all day long here... you look like you have AKs & have no idea what to do now that you missed the flop... turn bet looks like a weak pathetic attempt @ a stab... he knows you dont have the Q (unless it's an over thought tricky QQQ) & figures you'd have def bet AA / KK here again... making his jacks quite possibly the best hand here... then the river gives him relative 2nd nuts ( he knows you do not have a straight no matter what) being only beat by QQQ...


i think firing the flop makes this a million times easier... i like ~90... actually i probably just push in a whole stack of 5s now that i think about it...



i guess just follow through & bet ~80 on the river (IMO betting more is stupid right here.. after you check flop, then bet 1/3 on the turn you can't wake up & pot the river all of a sudden w/ one pair OOP... what's calling you that you beat? you already bet small on the turn, why not just bet smallish again here so as to follow through & dump to a shove)


*edit*
maybe bet folding ~ checking calling reasonable bet > check folding

[simo_8ball]

if the solid villain has a low pp, he's getting juuuust the right odds to mine

If he's really lucky and the table is loose and bad enough it might just be breakeven.

He should not be calling with a small pair here.

[Willing 2 Die]

Every once in awhile UTG has a hand he wants to push with. Then he just flushed $35. He needs needs a read on UTG to make this play break even and multiple players to stack off for him to show any profit. It think it's more likely that he just made a loose call. Maybe he forgot he wasn't playing 2/5?

Very loose. I guess he has the implied odds to hit his hand (pretty much knowing what i have) but him being in the BB with 6+ other pple to act i was very suprised to see what he called with.