Classic Turn Dilemma

[pdr87 0]

$5 SNG:Early no reads.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t20/t408 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: t1695UTG+1: t1320MP1: t1530MP2: t3210CO: t1335Button: t1380SB: t1305Hero: t1725Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with J J 3 folds, MP2 raises to t80, CO folds, Button calls t80 (pot was t140), SB calls t60 (pot was t220), Hero calls t40 (pot was t280).Flop: 5 8 6 (t320, 4 players)SB checks, Hero bets t200, MP2 calls t200 (pot was t520), Button calls t200 (pot was t720), SB folds.Turn: K (t920, 3 players)Hero...

[Metternich 0]

First off, reraise preflopIf you were ahead on the flop you're still ahead here, can't see a person floating that flop bet with AK or KQ here. Plus, that card missed the draws out there.I bet 700

[copernicus 0]

raise pf to narrow the fieldbet more on the flopcheck/fold the turn, they probably caught youAt the $5 level youre going to get paid off by a lot of trash hands and overcards with JJ, you cant play them timidly.

[Sick Boy 0]

I think the big mistake here is not raising preflop. I make this mistake all the time because Im still inexpierienced and sometimes I get outdrawn when I have a premium hand like queens or jacks. Definatly raise preflop. Having said that, I would probably fold or check the turn to see if I can hit trips or something on the river. Very unfortunate when you're in a hand like this.

[longshottwelve 0]

Your biggest mistake is definitely not raising PF. MP2 min raises. This gives too many opponents a chance to call with hands like (Q9, K9, Q10, K10, and low Ax) all hands you're ahead of, but susceptible to. You wanna end it on a flop like this so bet more.

[jmbreslin 0]

I'm going to go against the crowd here and say I'm fine with the PF call. With 2 callers of the original raise, you're going to have to make a darn big reraise to cut them out of the hand and get down to heads-up. Then postflop play becomes more challenging because your bets have to be much larger. And even if you do get HU, the chances are decent of an overcard falling on the flop...and you'll be playing OOP.Let's say Hero reraises PF. The pot is 280 when it comes around to him, so to force people out of the hand he's going to have to reraise to 250 or so. Pot is now 530, and let's say he gets one caller. Hero sees the flop OOP with JJ and a pot of 780. He'll then have to make a CB of at least, what, 400? He's now put in almost half his stack with JJ early in a SnG.The other problem with reraising PF is that Hero opens himself up to being reraised by the original raiser. Is he then going to fold his JJ? Go all in? Does anyone want to go all in with JJ this early in a SnG without a reliable read?

[throwemaway 0]

I'm going to go against the crowd here and say I'm fine with the PF call. With 2 callers of the original raise, you're going to have to make a darn big reraise to cut them out of the hand and get down to heads-up. Then postflop play becomes more challenging because your bets have to be much larger. And even if you do get HU, the chances are decent of an overcard falling on the flop...and you'll be playing OOP.Let's say Hero reraises PF. The pot is 280 when it comes around to him, so to force people out of the hand he's going to have to reraise to 250 or so. I would raise more than that..250 isn't enough because I think the initial raiser calls that light, and then everyone else is most likely coming along too..I would make it about 320-375ish.. Pot is now 530, and let's say he gets one caller. Hero sees the flop OOP with JJ and a pot of 780.Playing as I would, I think we have a very good shot at taking it down preflop but should we get a caller, the pot would be about t850 He'll then have to make a CB of at least, what, 400? He's now put in almost half his stack with JJ early in a SnG.We have about t1400 left and MP2 (who we will assume flats the reraise) covers...At this point, we are basically making a commitment decision...I'd make almost a pot sized bet with this flop and call a shove..The way I recommend we play it is much more aggressive, but in the early part of a SNG, I see players stack off with such absolute garbage I'm ok with it..Now if the flop comes with one overcard, an ace, I'm going to 1/2 pot it about and fold to a reraise...Two overcards, I'll c/f...If it comes Kxx or Qxx I'll just gauge it on my read of the Villain..At least we have thinned the field on my line and we have a much much better understanding of where we stand in the hand.The other problem with reraising PF is that Hero opens himself up to being reraised by the original raiser. Is he then going to fold his JJ? Go all in? Does anyone want to go all in with JJ this early in a SnG without a reliable read?If we get reraised by the original raiser thats great honestly..We found out at the earliest and cheapest part of the hand that we were behind...JJ doesn't fair well vs a MP min raise/ reshove..How OP played it, we are in absolute no man's land on both the flop and the turn..Our line looks like we are set mining JJ, which IMO, is far far too weak

[Sick Boy 0]

I'm going to go against the crowd here and say I'm fine with the PF call. With 2 callers of the original raise, you're going to have to make a darn big reraise to cut them out of the hand and get down to heads-up. Then postflop play becomes more challenging because your bets have to be much larger. And even if you do get HU, the chances are decent of an overcard falling on the flop...and you'll be playing OOP.Let's say Hero reraises PF. The pot is 280 when it comes around to him, so to force people out of the hand he's going to have to reraise to 250 or so. Pot is now 530, and let's say he gets one caller. Hero sees the flop OOP with JJ and a pot of 780. He'll then have to make a CB of at least, what, 400? He's now put in almost half his stack with JJ early in a SnG.The other problem with reraising PF is that Hero opens himself up to being reraised by the original raiser. Is he then going to fold his JJ? Go all in? Does anyone want to go all in with JJ this early in a SnG without a reliable read?

hmm. Some valid points are made in this post. A call could work here but I'm thinking you would probably take down the pot preflop with a raise anyway. In the case that you do get a caller,the flop is not scary at all, and you could raise again with your top pair and hopefully induce a fold once again. If you get a call and see the king on the turn....that's the thing, this ones also got me stumped. We need answers! Ask DN!!! He'll know!

[dereeekho 0]

if you were to call preflop, i think you have to c-r big after an 8 high flop to take it down there.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

Raise PF, check fold turn.

[BeaverStyle 1]

Raise PF, check fold turn.

Um.If he re-raises preflop, then we probably get a majority, if not all of, our mobney in on the flop, wouldn't we?So the turn is irrelevant.

[throwemaway 0]

Um.If he re-raises preflop, then we probably get a majority, if not all of, our mobney in on the flop, wouldn't we?So the turn is irrelevant.

yep. Just do what I say. Seriously. Its right lol

[BeaverStyle 1]

yep. Just do what I say. Seriously. Its right lol

Hehe. When you wear that suit it looks like you were taking a white poop and it got stuck.

[pdr87 0]

hmm. Some valid points are made in this post. A call could work here but I'm thinking you would probably take down the pot preflop with a raise anyway. In the case that you do get a caller,the flop is not scary at all, and you could raise again with your top pair and hopefully induce a fold once again. If you get a call and see the king on the turn....that's the thing, this ones also got me stumped. We need answers! Ask DN!!! He'll know!

Doesn't matter what the flop was at this exact exaple when we discuss preflop play...

[copernicus 0]

Oh I answered this already! Glad my answer didnt change.

[BeaverStyle 1]

Oh I answered this already! Glad my answer didnt change.

raise pf to narrow the fieldbet more on the flopcheck/fold the turn, they probably caught you

So you're going to c/f when you have invested about half your stack, when an overcard hits the turn?I might slow down, and consider folding based on the action, but I think we're still ahead here a lot of the time.This is all hypothetical, ofcourse. We probably don't get to see the turn without having most of our stack committed, as well as villain(s). I think if we don't get re-re-raised preflop (which would make us have to consider dumping our JJ preflop) we need to make a fairly large bet to weed out overcards.

[throwemaway 0]

So you're going to c/f when you have invested about half your stack, when an overcard hits the turn?I might slow down, and consider folding based on the action, but I think we're still ahead here a lot of the time.This is all hypothetical, ofcourse. We probably don't get to see the turn without having most of our stack committed, as well as villain(s). I think if we don't get re-re-raised preflop (which would make us have to consider dumping our JJ preflop) we need to make a fairly large bet to weed out overcards.

Yeah the turn is a moot point in this hand when we reraise preflop and put in a hefty sized bet on the flop..

[simo_8ball 1]

So you're going to c/f when you have invested about half your stack, when an overcard hits the turn?

No, that's an "as played" remark.

[BeaverStyle 1]

No, that's an "as played" remark.

Oh, that wasn't emphasized.aaaaaaaaand commence food coma..

[Sick Boy 0]

Doesn't matter what the flop was at this exact exaple when we discuss preflop play...

lol sorry my bad. i need to learn faster!haha

[copernicus 0]

So you're going to c/f when you have invested about half your stack, when an overcard hits the turn?I might slow down, and consider folding based on the action, but I think we're still ahead here a lot of the time.This is all hypothetical, ofcourse. We probably don't get to see the turn without having most of our stack committed, as well as villain(s). I think if we don't get re-re-raised preflop (which would make us have to consider dumping our JJ preflop) we need to make a fairly large bet to weed out overcards.

Yes, as played I c/f the turn. Its ugly folding with that much in the pot, but you put yourself in that position, and there is no such thing as "pot committed" if you KNOW your beaten.Of course you dont KNOW youre beaten here, but if the K didnt hit anybody youre probably not getting bet into, because drawing hands need to take advantage of the now single free card. If theres a bet, I think its a K the vast majority of the time. (At higher buyins a turn bet could be ATC and its a call, but if you dont play this hand more aggressively at higher buyins youre not going anywhere in the tourney anyway!)