24 replies to this topic

[Lord Ben]

This is for all the nutballs who want to discuss how Bush is stupid, yet stole two elections and made the world believe that there were WMD's in Iraq in order to advance his nefarious plans for world domination with Halliburton and the Carlyle Group.Ground rules? Okay, how about suggestions. If you're going to make outlandish statements try to back it up with a link, or at least good evidence.As far as stealing votes in Ohio goes, when the votes are tallied, even by machine, some clerk (probably a volunteer or minimally paid temp help) still checks of names of people as they go into the place to vote. The # of people are usually calculated for that log and compared to the number of machine votes. Each ward is different and sends in their totals separately. I did a lot of election monitoring in Wisconsin (Kerry by about 12,000 votes I think) and I verified on the webpage the next day that the total reported for our wards matched the total I saw on the machine, which matched the total number of ballots fed into the machine, which matched the # of people who showed up to vote + the number of absentee ballots. In Milwaukee (like 80%+ for Kerry), there were several thousand more votes counted than voters (our newspaper reported that, I don't have a link), and also a lot of people votes who's names don’t exist or who were registered as living at bridges or empty lots by their address. In Sheboygan, there were lots of fishy things happening, like a van showing up with 5 college kids who just signed a "lease" on notebook paper to live in an apartment and now wanted to vote (you need only show a lease in WI). They showed up at a couple different wards when they were turned away! Yet after all this I'm still not going to say that Kerry headed some plot to steal WI votes. Maybe overeager supporters or local people got a few thousand extra votes for Kerry, it's very possible. But I don't think there was enough to steal the election. And in Ohio the same thing *might* have happened for Bush, but not 150,000 extra votes. Stuff like that gets noticed and fast.

[digitalmonkey]

The main problem was/is that there is not much of a choice in who to vote for; idiot #1 or idiot #2.The mere fact that the election was even close is testament to this. A president can lie and send young men and woman off to death to fight for profit and still get at least half the votes only shows how weak the other option was. Bush's campaign instilled just enough fear into the American population to sway the common-man (read: hick) to vote for him.

[Lord Ben]

Different ways of looking at the same coin. I tend to think Kerry instilled the fear of everyones job moving to Madagascar or whatever country people are worried about this year (it always changes), in order to drum up enough support to make it close! There is a difference to having the entire world completely fooled by Saddams intelligence service into thinking Saddam had WMD's when he really didn't to lying about it when the US knows. Personally I think the CIA (and the Massod and MI6, etc) didn't know as much as they thought they knew and Saddam "tricked" us into invading him... not sure why.At any rate the fact that Pakistan, Libya, etc is far more open about their programs to me shows that even if everyone was wrong about Iraq at least some good came of it.

[digitalmonkey]

Lord Ben said:

At any rate the fact that Pakistan, Libya, etc is far more open about their programs to me shows that even if everyone was wrong about Iraq at least some good came of it.

A costly price to pay for something they may have done in the first place.

[digitalmonkey]

My biggest problem is the fact that Bush invaded another country against the wishes of the UN. How would the US react if Great Britain invaded Libya next week. I think they would have serious issues with that.Also, why is the US allowed to have weapons of mass destruction? Has Bush and his cronies created a list of countries who are allowed and a list of those who aren't.

[jrthunter]

The UN was bought!This is not conspiracy theory, the prominent people on the security council of the UN had been paid off mightily through the oil for food scandal.

[jrthunter]

As far as WMD's go, you must meet certain safety precautions and safeguards. Needless to say Saddam Hussein didn't meet these, nor does Kim Jong Il (North Korea)

[creepy20]

It doesn't matter what the UN says, our government voted to use force in Iraq...why would we have to ask some imaginary one world government for permission to do what our elected officials " yes Kerry too " voted to do. If the UN and its members had such a problem with it then why didn't countries who were against us help Iraq out and defend them. Why doesn't the UN impose sanctions against the US. Because the UN can't do anything. As the above poster also said....The oil for food program says it all...and to no suprise, the countries that opposed us going in were all the ones on the take.

[elkang]

Kennedy fixed the election in Illinois with mob help.So, let's re-visit this in 40 years.I see elements of both sides who are guilty of pushing the boundaries and breaking laws. Those of you who cannot see such appearances of impropriety have not been keeping up to date, though most of the muckraking has been done by fringe groups - the big boys like to keep the water calm and choose their own "issues" for media exploitation.Both sides fought hard and did well, but the Republicans did better and the election result is not going to change. So, engage in your partisan trip or ego trip or mental masturbation trip... but I see it as quite futile resulting in plenty of blah blah without result. Pitiful.If any of you were really knowledgeable I would see some better posts and links. You're all a bunch of hacks. I'm not much better but this is the only post this thread is getting out of me.P.S. Thanks for putting this thread in Off Topic (and out of the Lederer thread). That was a great thing!

[Lord Ben]

elkang said:

If any of you were really knowledgeable I would see some better posts and links. You're all a bunch of hacks. I'm not much better but this is the only post this thread is getting out of me.

Well, there is also the issue of not actually persuading anyone. I could write pages and pages of my opinions and what backs them up, etc and it wouldn't convince many people of anything different. So how much effort do you really put into an internet post? I've read hundreds upon hundreds of pages of blogs/books/newspapers/etc that support my case. Where to start? As I'm sure there are hundreds of sources of people getting things out of books that show Bush favors certain oil contractors too. Posting and citing only does so much. Arguing is useless, but kind of fun.

[Barou]

As an American, I have no problem listening to people who oppose Bush's policies. Personally, I think Bush is a better president than he gets credit for.I do have a problem with guys like digitalmonkey that are Canadian and bitch about Bush. I'm sorry man but that is BS. Be grateful for what the US has done for your country especially economically and for global security. Some times even if you don't necessarily "agree" with the US you still support the US. Have some ****ing brains and don't slap the hand that feeds you.

[rollito]

I love Bush.....The pus.sy not the president

[digitalmonkey]

Barou said:

As an American, I have no problem listening to people who oppose Bush's policies. Personally, I think Bush is a better president than he gets credit for.I do have a problem with guys like digitalmonkey that are Canadian and censored about Bush. I'm sorry man but that is BS. Be grateful for what the US has done for your country especially economically and for global security. Some times even if you don't necessarily "agree" with the US you still support the US. Have some censored brains and don't slap the hand that feeds you.

Grateful for what the US has done for us? I'd tell you to f*ck off but you probably wouldn't hear me being all the way up there on your high high horse.Must one live in America to have an opinion on the topic? The bottom line is that the US does everything it accuses and forbids others from doing. Sanctions should be imposed against the US, but how effective is it to hide the cookie jar from the baker?Support something you don't agree with? Drink the f*ckin Kool-Aid man and SMFD while you're at it!

[digitalmonkey]

jrthunter said:

As far as WMD's go, you must meet certain safety precautions and safeguards. Needless to say Saddam Hussein didn't meet these, nor does Kim Jong Il (North Korea)

Don't you actually have to have WMD's before you have to meet these certain safety precautions and safeguards?

[Barou]

You're right dickweed, the US does nothing for you. We only consume your products, open our border to give Canadian citizens American opportunities (I think you would even agree there are more Canadians coming to the US than US citizens going to Canada), and we offer you national security. You have the priviledge to knock Bush while he is building up our military and guess what? that same military that we pay for we'll be there to defend your country no matter what. I'm sorry if I came across as being on a "high horse" it just pisses me off that our "friends" that we would take a bullet for openly criticize our policies. It's kind of like when your brother gets in a fight and he is partially or primarily responsible for the fight, do you sit and watch him get his ass kicked because you think he was wrong or do you back your brother that would take a bullet for you any day of the week?The United States does a lot more for Canada than Canada does for the US, that's not being on a high horse, that's a fact.As your brother country you can count on us to back you up, anytime. Furthermore, you can count on us keeping our opinions of your Canadian gov't to ourselves.

[Lord Ben]

Barou said:

Furthermore, you can count on us keeping our opinions of your Canadian gov't to ourselves.

No you can't, I think their socialized medicine is crap and I say so frequently.

[digitalmonkey]

Barou said:

You're right dickweed, the US does nothing for you. We only consume your products, open our border to give Canadian citizens American opportunities (I think you would even agree there are more Canadians coming to the US than US citizens going to Canada), and we offer you national security. You have the priviledge to knock Bush while he is building up our military and guess what? that same military that we pay for we'll be there to defend your country no matter what. I'm sorry if I came across as being on a "high horse" it just censored me off that our "friends" that we would take a bullet for openly criticize our policies. It's kind of like when your brother gets in a fight and he is partially or primarily responsible for the fight, do you sit and watch him get his ass kicked because you think he was wrong or do you back your brother that would take a bullet for you any day of the week?The United States does a lot more for Canada than Canada does for the US, that's not being on a high horse, that's a fact.As your brother country you can count on us to back you up, anytime. Furthermore, you can count on us keeping our opinions of your Canadian gov't to ourselves.

Firstly, your brother analogy is bogus because the "brother" is not getting his ass kicked. He is the bully going around acting like a meglomaniac.Secondly, the border we share is also open to Americans to cross into Canada. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.Thirdly, you consume our products? Do you consume them because it benefits us or you? You are ignorant.Finally, you like many Americans probably don't even have an opinion on the Canadian Government. Many Americans are so self-centred, they probably couldn't even name the provinces without googling it. Tell me (without looking it up) - who was the first Prime Minister of Canada? I know you don't know!

[Barou]

Ya, digitalmonkey, I'm sure you could rattle off all the 50 American states? The brother analogy is far from "bogus". The frickin' point is you stand with your brother/friend/ally, etc. through thick and thin even when you may disagree.Keep talking your shit about Bush and the US. I can only hope to assume your in the minority of Canadian citizens that lack appreciation for the US.

[Frills]

Damn Mexico north, Seriously, how smart can you people be, living in a climate where the avg temp is well below 55 degrees the entire year?The hell with that, 4/29 at 1:50 pm CST and its a nice 91 and sunny.

[digitalmonkey]

Barou said:

Ya, digitalmonkey, I'm sure you could rattle off all the 50 American states? The brother analogy is far from "bogus". The frickin' point is you stand with your brother/friend/ally, etc. through thick and thin even when you may disagree.Keep talking your censored about Bush and the US. I can only hope to assume your in the minority of Canadian citizens that lack appreciation for the US.

Actually I think I could list all 50 states, although I'd probably forget Delaware.And I doubt I am in the minority of Canadian citizens when it comes to my opinion on Bush. In fact, I would argue that the mahority of Americans have a similar opinion of Bush.Don't confuse an opinion on Bush with an opinion on America. They are far from the same.