28 replies to this topic

[tj9422-]

I just started to use pot odds in my game but it has truned my game unside down......how do you use then ?????Doe you use them pre flop, on str8 and fkush draws only just after the flop. i am so loose with this part of the game if you have any info or a link to find it let me know.......

[Zach6668]

Start by reading a poker book. A beginners book, more specifically.

[walkabout]

Zach is being straight with you. Buy a book for the game you play. If it's Limit...try Winning low limit hold-em by Lee Jones. If you don't understand pot odds/ implied odds and pot equity....your doomed. GL

[donk4life]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

Start by reading a poker book. A beginners book, more specifically.

That was the least sarcastic post I've ever seen you make

[tj9422-]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

Start by reading a poker book. A beginners book, more specifically.

I have read. i am on my 6 book about.I just can not find a str8 forward way to use pot odds.On a norther note I do plain on writing a post on all the book that I have read. so look for this soon....So back to this post like I said be4.... i need help on placing pot odds in to my game put with ever try i just keep throwing chips away. I do intend to read more. so hope something will braek....

[Zach6668]

Honestly dude/dudette, unless you've read the wrong books, we can't do a better job than them.In "Theory of Poker", there is an entire chapter dedicated to pot odds. If you couldn't figure it out from that, we probably can't help you here. I just can't imagine anything I say being any more influential than an entire chapter in that book.

[tj9422-]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 12:59 PM, said:

Honestly dude/dudette, unless you've read the wrong books, we can't do a better job than them.In "Theory of Poker", there is an entire chapter dedicated to pot odds. If you couldn't figure it out from that, we probably can't help you here. I just can't imagine anything I say being any more influential than an entire chapter in that book.

Ok i will just go to my room and read and will not come out till I get this ...... you don't have to be mean

[Zach6668]

That's not being mean. Seriously.

[tj9422-]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:13 PM, said:

That's not being mean. Seriously.

dam your fastlook i read some books and in tend to read more i was just look for some one to help with something that i was not getting.I am not new to hold-em have played for about 3yrs or so....i know i need to get better and started to realy look for ways to inprove my game over the last yr.i have picked up most things but i just can not get the pot odd thing.....

[Zach6668]

Ok, well let's try this then. :)Simple explanation.We hold .The board is .The pot contains $300.00.Our opponents bets his last $50.00. He is all in, so we don't have to worry about other concepts, such as implied odds, or reverse implied odds, etc.Villain accidentaly exposes his hand as , so we know exactly how we stand. We're behind. But we've got a good draw. We've got exactly 9 outs to the flush to beat him (Js, Ts, 9s, 7s, 6s, 5s, 4s, 3s, 2s). It gets a tiny bit tricky here, as this is a bit of a weird example, but we now know exactly where 8 cards are, which leaves 44 cards in the deck. Of those 44 cards, we know 9 win for us. (I only say tricky, because in practice, we don't know his exact hand, so we would tend to evaluate our odds based on a deck of 46 unseen cards or 47 if we're on the flop, and so on). Anyways, we will win this pot 9/44 times. These are the odds that we make the best hand.Meanwhile, the other side of it is the pot size. In this case, there's $300, PLUS the $50 he is betting. This means that we need to call $50 to win $350.That gives us "pot odds" of 350 to 50, or 7-1. In order to justify a call here, we need to win the pot more than 1/8 (7:1 translates to 1/8) times.So, what we do, is now compare the two odds I've come up with. If our odds of winning the pot are greater than the odds the pot is offering us, then it's a +EV call, all else being equal (as it is in this example).9/44 = 20.45%, 1/8 = 12.5%20.45 > 12.5, therefore, we've got correct pot odds to call.===============If we were to change the example a little bit, and say he's betting his last $300 on the turn, then we get a different result.Our odds to win stay the same at 20.45%, but the pot odds are different. There is now $600 in the pot, and we need to call $300. This means 600:300 or 2:1 pot odds. Continuing on, we need to win the pot 1/3 times to break even. 1/3 = 33.3%, which is greater than the odds that we win the pot, therefore, we get come to the opposite conclusion than we did in the first example, as our drawing odds are smaller than our pot odds, therefore we should fold.===============The theory behind pot odds assume that we are maximizing our long term gains.Pot odds are really just a way to show whether a play has a positive expectation, over the long run.Continuing on with the two examples above, we can make EV calculations in each case.In the first example, we need to call $50 to win $350. 9/44ths of the time, we win $350, 35/44 times we lose $50.EV(calling $50) = 9/44(+350) + 35/44(-50) = $31.82Since this is a positive number, we would win in the long run making this call.The other example, which proved to be a fold as per the pot odds yields the following EV calculation:EV(calling $300) = 9/44(+600) + 35/44(-300) = -$115.91Since this is a negative number, we're losing (lots of) money in the long run by making this call.So basicaly, pot odds techniques are just an easier way of calculating whether a play is +EV or not, while playing poker.Compare your pot odds vs the odds of you winning the pot (usually done by figuring out how many outs you have), and you can proceed from there to make the correct decision.Questions?

[whatgreatis]

tj9422-, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

you don't have to be mean

That isn't mean. Although Zach can say some pretty harsh things on a nearly daily basis.

[Zach6668]

whatgreatis, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:51 PM, said:

That isn't mean. Although Zach can say some pretty harsh things on a nearly daily basis.

Yet I also provide such amazing value.

[Sheiky]

I swear that's the first time i've ever seen Zach use the smiley.Great post, if you don't understand pot odds after reading that you really are stuffed.

[tj9422-]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:50 PM, said:

Ok, well let's try this then. :)Simple explanation.We hold .The board is .The pot contains $300.00.Our opponents bets his last $50.00. He is all in, so we don't have to worry about other concepts, such as implied odds, or reverse implied odds, etc.Villain accidentaly exposes his hand as , so we know exactly how we stand. We're behind. But we've got a good draw. We've got exactly 9 outs to the flush to beat him (Js, Ts, 9s, 7s, 6s, 5s, 4s, 3s, 2s). It gets a tiny bit tricky here, as this is a bit of a weird example, but we now know exactly where 8 cards are, which leaves 44 cards in the deck. Of those 44 cards, we know 9 win for us. (I only say tricky, because in practice, we don't know his exact hand, so we would tend to evaluate our odds based on a deck of 46 unseen cards or 47 if we're on the flop, and so on). Anyways, we will win this pot 9/44 times. These are the odds that we make the best hand.Meanwhile, the other side of it is the pot size. In this case, there's $300, PLUS the $50 he is betting. This means that we need to call $50 to win $350.That gives us "pot odds" of 350 to 50, or 7-1. In order to justify a call here, we need to win the pot more than 1/8 (7:1 translates to 1/8) times.So, what we do, is now compare the two odds I've come up with. If our odds of winning the pot are greater than the odds the pot is offering us, then it's a +EV call, all else being equal (as it is in this example).9/44 = 20.45%, 1/8 = 12.5%20.45 > 12.5, therefore, we've got correct pot odds to call.===============If we were to change the example a little bit, and say he's betting his last $300 on the turn, then we get a different result.Our odds to win stay the same at 20.45%, but the pot odds are different. There is now $600 in the pot, and we need to call $300. This means 600:300 or 2:1 pot odds. Continuing on, we need to win the pot 1/3 times to break even. 1/3 = 33.3%, which is greater than the odds that we win the pot, therefore, we get come to the opposite conclusion than we did in the first example, as our drawing odds are smaller than our pot odds, therefore we should fold.===============The theory behind pot odds assume that we are maximizing our long term gains.Pot odds are really just a way to show whether a play has a positive expectation, over the long run.Continuing on with the two examples above, we can make EV calculations in each case.In the first example, we need to call $50 to win $350. 9/44ths of the time, we win $350, 35/44 times we lose $50.EV(calling $50) = 9/44(+350) + 35/44(-50) = $31.82Since this is a positive number, we would win in the long run making this call.The other example, which proved to be a fold as per the pot odds yields the following EV calculation:EV(calling $300) = 9/44(+600) + 35/44(-300) = -$115.91Since this is a negative number, we're losing (lots of) money in the long run by making this call.So basicaly, pot odds techniques are just an easier way of calculating whether a play is +EV or not, while playing poker.Compare your pot odds vs the odds of you winning the pot (usually done by figuring out how many outs you have), and you can proceed from there to make the correct decision.Questions?

Zach6668 Thank you for your time I understand the pot odds and understand both ways you used them in your post.The thing i don't get is when to use them.Look at it this way in the hands you usedpre flop...Q8 is on the button with a raise 1 BBsmall blind foldsAK s in big blind Us How do we use pot odd heredo we even use them pre flop?/? this is what i don't get about pot odds??/ when to use them.....thanks again and for not really ripping me a new ahole

[Zach6668]

You should be at least considering them for each decision you make.The problem is that there are more factors that just pot odds that contribute to decisions that aren't simple all ins where we need to decide to call or fold.

[tj9422-]

Zach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 2:45 PM, said:

You should be at least considering them for each decision you make.The problem is that there are more factors that just pot odds that contribute to decisions that aren't simple all ins where we need to decide to call or fold.

ok so you can use pot odd on ever betting turn pre, flop turn and river.... now i just need to work out the bugs so when i do use them i don't just give away chip when the pot odds say to call thanks for your help I think i am just putting to much on pot odd. i may just srcap them out of my game.... i did better on the table when not using them....Thanks again Zach you have help some

[Zach6668]

tj9422-, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 3:20 PM, said:

ok so you can use pot odd on ever betting turn pre, flop turn and river.... now i just need to work out the bugs so when i do use them i don't just give away chip when the pot odds say to call thanks for your help I think i am just putting to much on pot odd. i may just srcap them out of my game.... i did better on the table when not using them....Thanks again Zach you have help some

Don't scrap them from your game.They are incredibly important in every decision you make, but as you get better, or more experienced, you'll start to factor them in without really noticing.I think, what would be best for you, is if you posted a few hands, or scenarios in which you had a decision to make, and you were unsure how to apply the pot odds, and then I, or someone else, can explain how we factor them into that spot.It becomes somewhat complex to just describe it without examples at this point.

[tj9422-]

ok Thanks zachI will get around to it when i hit a point (hand ) to post....

[Pot Odds RAC]

Mean?Wow. That wasn't mean, he didn't even call you "retarded" which was how he "welcomed" me to the board the first time I made an honest post looking for feedback but which he felt was beneath him.As far as Pot Odds "messing up your game"...I have played guitar for over 25 years. I am not that good, but don't completely suck either. A few years ago, I decided to take some lessons from a local Blues Hero. After over a year of lessons, not only did I not improve, I felt like I got worse. In retrospect a few things were happening. Firstly, I was probably slowing down and "over thinking" my playing which was resulting in poorer results. Secondly, my expectations were higher than could be reasonably expected. I just wasn't going to get better in a short period of time and be able to play like a master just because I was learning from one. Thirdly, I wasn't playing NEARLY as poorly as I was thinking. People who were objectively listening to my play told me I sounded pretty good and heard some improvement. Fourthly, there were other things going on in my life that were resulting in variance in my play. Finally, today over two years after quitting the lessons and gaining a ton of experience, I find I can incorporate those learnings more naturally in my play today - making me a FAR better player as a result....see where I'm going with this?

[Zach6668]

Pot Odds RAC, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 4:07 PM, said:

Mean?Wow. That wasn't mean, he didn't even call you "retarded" which was how he "welcomed" me to the board the first time I made an honest post looking for feedback but which he felt was beneath him.

lol, link?