70 replies to this topic

[steve7stud]

I decided to write this thread because I have been dating a lot lately. One of the most common questions I get is, what do I do for a living. I have to explain to each girl, that I play poker, yes there are casinos in LA, no I'm not playing against the house, etc, etc, etc.

During this process, I realized that many people probably have an idea of what the poker world is like, but some might not know as much as they think.

A person who plays poker for a living is someone that uses income from poker to survive. By standard definition, a pro is someone that makes the majority of their money from poker. Of course there are different levels of pro, and various degrees of success.

What I want to focus on in this thread is tournaments and high stakes poker.

Tournament players typically have more of a "loose aggressive" style. This style of play can and is often rewarded in tourneys. However, it usually is very exploitable in a cash game.

I can't think of a single high stakes cash game player who was not rooting for David "the Dragon" Pham to win the WPT at the Bike. The reason is quite simple. At least some of the money that he won would be circulated around the poker world in cash games. Now you have a guy like Dan Harrington. Well if he wins, that money is essentially gone from the poker world forever.

It's common knowledge that tournaments have a ton of variance. As a community here at FCP, we get genuinely excited when one of our "own" goes deep or wins a tourney. I have often wondered why people don't get as excited when a person does well in a cash game. Obviously you can't see live cash games here and rail them. But online, people seem to go crazy and rail small tournaments, post results, etc. I honestly think that's great. I just wonder why the same or similar attention is not given to cash games online.

I really don't want to spend more time talking about tournaments. There are plenty of people here who are playing them online and live. And those individuals can always chime in. I just wanted to add in the two pieces that I did.

Now we get to high stakes poker.

Sadly, not everything is what it seems. High stakes games are fewer and far between both live and online these days.

Because of the popularity of tournaments, a lot of the money from cash games is being pulled away from live poker and exchanged for buy ins. It's not just the buy ins themselves. It's travelling, hotels, airfare, and most importantly.........time away from the game itself. When a person who normally decides to play high stakes poker goes off to another state or country and plays a tournament, that can kill a game.

So who are these people who play high stakes poker?

Some of them you know, and some of them you don't. I definitely am not going to name any names.

I will say that some of the ones that you know are a welcome addition to most high stakes games.

I always find it interesting when people are enamoured with poker players. Most guys give off a great impression when they are smiling and taking pictures as well as signing autographs. Some are good at acting "nice" for the camera. Others try and milk the TV time for all it's worth and do whatever they can to get attention.

My point is, a lot of high stakes players are not what you'd expect. Most are very tempermental, whether they show it or not. Most let the pressure of money dictate their happiness. Quite a few don't like playing poker. Some are good people, some aren't. Sometimes you are idolizing the wrong players.

I have always been in awe of people with true talent. Actors, musicians, athletes, etc.

I guess that these days I find it difficult to be in awe of any poker player.

By the way. I too have been affected by the money pressure. Mistakes that dealers make that cost me a pot. Dealing with various personalities. While my game certainly is 10x's than I ever thought it could or would be. I wonder if I am not as good of a person in the long run. When I say not as good of a person, I don't mean acting without integrity. I don't believe in cheating, shooting angles or any of that nonsense. I am more opposed to that than anything else in the game of poker. What I am talking about is being a good person. A decent human being. I often question my attitude as well as the attitude of others that I play with. Don't get me wrong, I try and create a light, jovial atmosphere. But don't think for one second that money does not change people. It does.

Anyway, I wanted to share this with you guys. This is about as closed to a blog as you are going to get from me.

Hope you enjoyed.

Steve

[Royal_Tour]

Thanks,

I also hate the mood swings that come with playing fulltime. right now i'm seriously thinking about life in general.

I had a good week playing last week, then lost most of it in the last 3 days on a ugly downswing. I start to think to myself, wtf? has this whole bankroll building i've done been mostly luck?

i question my game, whether i'm good enough, whether i'll be broke soon, how will I build it back if it keeps going down over the next few sessions....

I'd also like to take this time to point something out to online players.

If you've read this far you deserve to know.


If you are an online player, who plays fulltime for a living, I would suggest that you get a holiday working visa, and move to surfers paradise australia for 6 months.

you and some friends, or other players, can rent a 2bed 2 bath +study condo, 40 floors up with ocean view, 300 meters from the beach, equiped with Gym, pool, spa, for 175-200 a week each for 3 people. could be less if you get a 4th to share etc...

check circle on cavill in surfers paradise, its 4 months old, and you can get fully furnished places with internet.

it never storms there so you wont have to worry about connection, and PLUS, since its 17-14 hours ahead of north america, when you play during the day, you're actually playing americans who play in the evening. which means your saturday day playing is their friday night drunken sessions.

Thats all i'm gonna say about that. If i was a fulltime online player, i'd be doing something similar in a heart beat

[steve7stud]

After writing a novel like that at 6am before going to sleep, I certainly was likely to leave a few things out.

I would never tell someone not to become a pro poker player. While I think it's difficult...... with the right training, the right talent, and discipline, I believe that anyone can have success on some level.

The things that I spoke about were from my experience. Others might have a different view. I'm not saying that my way is the right way, or that this is how it is. More like, I'm sharing with you what I have seen and continue to see.

Lastly. While my opinion of players has changed over the years, that doesn't mean that yours has to, obviously. Not that I have any great influence over what people think. I just wouldn't want people to start jumping to conclusions. I spoke in very broad terms for a reason.

[mellinac]

Good Post. Thank you. Especially the part about money changing people.

[Cappy37]

I'll go a different direction here:

I'm one of the "hobbyists", for lack of a better term. I have a 4-year degree in Economics, with a focus on statistics, sports, and games of strategy. So poker became a natural hobby for me. I picked up any book I could read, online article I could peruse, and eventually found FCP.

Someone of my standing (twenty-something college kid with a 3rd shift job) would generally be spending his free time plaing video games, downloading music, playing and intstrument, hunting, fishing, bowling, billiards, magic the gathering, etc...

The interesting aspect of all the above "hobbies" is: they all cost money. Participating in each is generally going to be a dead-weight loss. You can be in a local band, but the revenue you generate barely touches the equipment you buy, beer you drink, etc. The game you shoot/catch hunting and fishing doesn't offset the cost of pursuit. Few people make substantial money playing Magic the Gathering (guessing, knowing the tourneys are few and far between). And anyone who has ever shoot pool seriously will tell you that any given pool hall you walk into, you are the 2nd or 3rd best player there whether you know it or not. God forbid you walk into an APA or BCA tournament. Welcome to competition, in a game of high variance.

Poker, on the other hand, is a marvelous way to pass the ol' time, and, if you have any sort of chops whatsoever, you.... don't lose money. As you progress, you find it rather easy to eek out a bit of a profit. As time passes, you really start to wonder if you can be profitable enough a couple notches higher than you normally play to get into "secondary income" status. Once you get there, the dream of becoming pro is suddenly within your grasp to the point you can taste it. You start watching the game on television and can explain to buddies (or your poor, hapless girlfriend who just wants human contact because of your goddamn poker addiction) why players are making the moves they are making, what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong. Pointing out that even though Joe Sclho took down the pot, he was an idiot for stacking off with XX hand, how Bill Fillmuff has to call XX amount regardless of his cards via pot odds, and blah blah blah.. Point is, you really start knowing your sh!t.

This is the grey area that we all struggle with: When you first start playing guitar, the sheer joy of learning notes is followed by learning chords.. Then that one magical day, you are able to switch from chord to chord without missing a beat and can start playing songs beyond power-chord anthems. Once you hit that stage, though, you get into fingerpicking, guitar solos, and chord variations. At that point, screwing up and retraining your hands and learning the limits of your manual dexterity starts to TICK YOU OFF. You no longer have the sheer love, you *expect* to excel at guitar. And you lock yourself in your room. For hours. Days. Weeks. and you must *master* this craft.

Pool works the same way. You start making some balls, getting a solid stroke, a reliable aim. That's fun and you goof off with the buddies. Then you eventually get talked into joining a pool league. You learn the rule sets. You learn defense. You learn bank shots. You learn kick shots. You learn strategy. And finally, you learn the concept of "if you can see the shot, you can make it". Armed with the knowledge you can kickshot the 4 ball out of it's striped prison 3 rails and put it in the far corner, you will hate yourself when you fail. You will screw up defenses in pressure situations. You will take the wrong outs to get to the eight ball. You will scratch trying.. not to scratch. And by god, the worst is upon you: You wake up your consciousness one day, and you are about to start a league pool match, and you break, sinking a solid. You then scan the other solids, and you spot the 8 ball. You then mentally scope out the 8 ball, and notice where you would love to shoot in the eight ball from. You notice the solid closest to that spot, the 7. You notice the pocket and angle that would make the 7 easiest to pocket. You then spot a the 4 ball on a side pocket that would give perfect natural leave to set up the 7 ball... You then mentally map out the other 6 f'n balls and THEN (and only then) do you take your *first* shot.

This my friends, is when pool is no longer a fun hobby, it's a profession you aren't paid handsomely for.

I tell the pool and guitar stories to point out the fundamental problem we all have with poker: at the start, we are gaining by leaps and bounds. Every penny we win feels *so* friggin good. Watching aces hold, hitting our straight draws. Finishing deep for the first time in a tourney to the astonishment of those that think we didn't have a chance. Hitting that first deposit bonus! It's all upside.

But one, dark, dark day we evolve. We evolve into poker pros. We know our QQ is only 70/30 to Ace-Four. We know our OESD + FD is a favorite to his top pair, we know our flopped set on a 2 club board *should* be good. We know our pocket tens AIPF should never have been called by duece-five, much less CRACKED by it. We are no longer satisfied with minor cashes, booking small cash wins, making the right plays. We need to win every pot and have all our big hands hold. We must NEVER have our 13 outs twice brick. We hate playing with donkeys because they put horrible beats on us and won't lay down in pots we need to maneuver them out of to survive late in tournaments.

And it snowballs, and snowballs. Eventually you end up on an internet forum screaming at some other guy that he needs to realize he's giving up too much equity to play AK near the bubble in a satellite. We start screaming at people who tell us our "awesome" 4th place major finish was a great run, when it barely gets us even for the month in the wake of our 30 MTT buy-in downswing.

It just loses it's zeal. Its stopped being a hobby. It's become an obsession to be that guy on TV. To have that bracelet. That impeccable OPR or Sharkscope rating. To pay for a house and 2 cars in cash. To never have to work a day in your life outside of a casino. And if I just move up a couple limits to get my rhythm back with a solid win or two, I'm back on the right trac.......

And it's time to re-deposit.

But this time we're a lock to become the next superstar.

Holy thread highjack, this was long. sorry. did that help anyone with perspective?

[rivergirl]

That was actually a great analogy Cappy. And thanks for making me realize pool is no longer a hobby for me....lol. i'm still hoping most of it is just my super competative nature....

[Sheiky]

That's a top post Cappy, how you managed to write something as long and well thought out as that is beyond me.

[Highlow16]

I havent posted in months... but cappy, that was a great post that puts things into perspective.

We have to try to rekindle what was once fun about the game and remember that we still love to PLAY. Find it again

[20TN40]

Great post, Cappy! I had more fun playing that silly $1.10 Razz barrage last night than I have anything in a long time!

PERSPECTIVE!!!! Got it!

[jethrodull]

two great posts in one thread...

I'd say this post

[x] has delivered!

J

[Vick12]

Steve

Excellent post!! I don't have a lot to add, but just wanted to say that is a very good post for people who are "thinking" of making that jump to pro level.







































(Please quit giving the s7s Secret Formulas away for free!!! kthxbye)

[daniel mahan]

I'll go a different direction here:

I'm one of the "hobbyists", for lack of a better term. I have a 4-year degree in Economics, with a focus on statistics, sports, and games of strategy. So poker became a natural hobby for me. I picked up any book I could read, online article I could peruse, and eventually found FCP.

Someone of my standing (twenty-something college kid with a 3rd shift job) would generally be spending his free time plaing video games, downloading music, playing and intstrument, hunting, fishing, bowling, billiards, magic the gathering, etc...

The interesting aspect of all the above "hobbies" is: they all cost money. Participating in each is generally going to be a dead-weight loss. You can be in a local band, but the revenue you generate barely touches the equipment you buy, beer you drink, etc. The game you shoot/catch hunting and fishing doesn't offset the cost of pursuit. Few people make substantial money playing Magic the Gathering (guessing, knowing the tourneys are few and far between). And anyone who has ever shoot pool seriously will tell you that any given pool hall you walk into, you are the 2nd or 3rd best player there whether you know it or not. God forbid you walk into an APA or BCA tournament. Welcome to competition, in a game of high variance.

Poker, on the other hand, is a marvelous way to pass the ol' time, and, if you have any sort of chops whatsoever, you.... don't lose money. As you progress, you find it rather easy to eek out a bit of a profit. As time passes, you really start to wonder if you can be profitable enough a couple notches higher than you normally play to get into "secondary income" status. Once you get there, the dream of becoming pro is suddenly within your grasp to the point you can taste it. You start watching the game on television and can explain to buddies (or your poor, hapless girlfriend who just wants human contact because of your goddamn poker addiction) why players are making the moves they are making, what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong. Pointing out that even though Joe Sclho took down the pot, he was an idiot for stacking off with XX hand, how Bill Fillmuff has to call XX amount regardless of his cards via pot odds, and blah blah blah.. Point is, you really start knowing your sh!t.

This is the grey area that we all struggle with: When you first start playing guitar, the sheer joy of learning notes is followed by learning chords.. Then that one magical day, you are able to switch from chord to chord without missing a beat and can start playing songs beyond power-chord anthems. Once you hit that stage, though, you get into fingerpicking, guitar solos, and chord variations. At that point, screwing up and retraining your hands and learning the limits of your manual dexterity starts to TICK YOU OFF. You no longer have the sheer love, you *expect* to excel at guitar. And you lock yourself in your room. For hours. Days. Weeks. and you must *master* this craft.

Pool works the same way. You start making some balls, getting a solid stroke, a reliable aim. That's fun and you goof off with the buddies. Then you eventually get talked into joining a pool league. You learn the rule sets. You learn defense. You learn bank shots. You learn kick shots. You learn strategy. And finally, you learn the concept of "if you can see the shot, you can make it". Armed with the knowledge you can kickshot the 4 ball out of it's striped prison 3 rails and put it in the far corner, you will hate yourself when you fail. You will screw up defenses in pressure situations. You will take the wrong outs to get to the eight ball. You will scratch trying.. not to scratch. And by god, the worst is upon you: You wake up your consciousness one day, and you are about to start a league pool match, and you break, sinking a solid. You then scan the other solids, and you spot the 8 ball. You then mentally scope out the 8 ball, and notice where you would love to shoot in the eight ball from. You notice the solid closest to that spot, the 7. You notice the pocket and angle that would make the 7 easiest to pocket. You then spot a the 4 ball on a side pocket that would give perfect natural leave to set up the 7 ball... You then mentally map out the other 6 f'n balls and THEN (and only then) do you take your *first* shot.

This my friends, is when pool is no longer a fun hobby, it's a profession you aren't paid handsomely for.

I tell the pool and guitar stories to point out the fundamental problem we all have with poker: at the start, we are gaining by leaps and bounds. Every penny we win feels *so* friggin good. Watching aces hold, hitting our straight draws. Finishing deep for the first time in a tourney to the astonishment of those that think we didn't have a chance. Hitting that first deposit bonus! It's all upside.

But one, dark, dark day we evolve. We evolve into poker pros. We know our QQ is only 70/30 to Ace-Four. We know our OESD + FD is a favorite to his top pair, we know our flopped set on a 2 club board *should* be good. We know our pocket tens AIPF should never have been called by duece-five, much less CRACKED by it. We are no longer satisfied with minor cashes, booking small cash wins, making the right plays. We need to win every pot and have all our big hands hold. We must NEVER have our 13 outs twice brick. We hate playing with donkeys because they put horrible beats on us and won't lay down in pots we need to maneuver them out of to survive late in tournaments.

And it snowballs, and snowballs. Eventually you end up on an internet forum screaming at some other guy that he needs to realize he's giving up too much equity to play AK near the bubble in a satellite. We start screaming at people who tell us our "awesome" 4th place major finish was a great run, when it barely gets us even for the month in the wake of our 30 MTT buy-in downswing.

It just loses it's zeal. Its stopped being a hobby. It's become an obsession to be that guy on TV. To have that bracelet. That impeccable OPR or Sharkscope rating. To pay for a house and 2 cars in cash. To never have to work a day in your life outside of a casino. And if I just move up a couple limits to get my rhythm back with a solid win or two, I'm back on the right trac.......

And it's time to re-deposit.

But this time we're a lock to become the next superstar.

Holy thread highjack, this was long. sorry. did that help anyone with perspective?

............................... ........................................

[bobbywithani]

That impeccable OPR or Sharkscope rating.

Mines already pretty impressive, so try again.

[donk4life]

Cappy.... that was an amazing post....

[Veener Schnitz]

[ X ] Epic Thread

[gatortom64]

How did these well thought out, lucid posts end up in General???? Anarchy, Chaos, Armageddon!!!!!!

[YBravo]

Steve-

I think tournament final tables are a much bigger deal b/c it feels more like an accomplishment. You've outlasted or "beat" hundreds or even thousands of other players. You made a few great plays and caught a few lucky breaks and have made it to the final table, where the money you earn goes up almost exponentially. There is a story to follow in a tournament, and the story has a beginning, middle, and end. Tournaments have a build in both stakes and excitement. When you're watching a tournament, you know that the player you're rooting for has to make a move soon as the stakes rise, and you know how unlikely it is for those moves to all be successful. The joy of winning a tournament is one of the most enjoyable experiences that poker can bring to a player. It feels great, and people can watch and root on a player that we know and to some extent live vicariously through that player.

Cash games, on the other hand, just don't have the excitement and the money that tournaments do. While it is certainly a special accomplishment to go up 4 or 5 buy-ins on one table, it just doesn't seem as rare as a tournament final table, and it definitely does not have the same amount of money involved. Most importantly, there is no story to follow because the stakes of the cash game (at least online) never change. There is no continued rise in excitement. This makes it a lot less fun to watch because you don't know when the big hands are going to come.

I think there is definitely respect for cash game players here, we just don't make threads saying "congrats on moving up to 2/4 NL." Maybe we should.

[Vick12]

While it is certainly a special accomplishment to go up 4 or 5 buy-ins on one table, it just doesn't seem as rare as a tournament final table, and it definitely does not have the same amount of money involved.

Bravo,

I see where most of your post is aimed, but this statement couldn't be more untrue. The amount of money involved depends on what stakes u play and that's Steve's point really.

Say I make a FT. Let's say it's a standard $100 buy in mtt and 1st place is 10k. I make said FT and Planet FCP comes and roots me on to Victory (OBV) and I take home 10k....wOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOt!!!

Meanwhile....at the same time Steve7stud is also playing online...except he's playin 1k/2k Horse on Tilt against Oppenheim, Hansen, Benyamine, Singer, and Huckleberry Seed. Steve is up 20 BB's for the session for a staggering 40k.

Now....Planet FCP will have a thread that likely reaches 3/4 pages congratulating me on my fantastic effort etc. Steve on the other hand...not only doesn't anyone start a thread for Steve, NOBODY EVEN KNOWS HE'S PLAYING. (Btw...that IS Steve's prefferance...if he wanted everyone to know his Tilt sn...we all would...but he doesn't...so u dont'!!!) =)

I think THAT was Steve's point. There are PLENTY of FCP'ers who are clearing well between 500-2k a day playing cash games...yet never get any sort of acknowlagement.

I do agree w/ most of what u did say about the begginning/middle/end...story...etc..

[gfdsa146]

I dont know who does really well in the higher stakes cash games (probably cobalt is a good one), but at my stakes, the micro stakes, i think a guy like craigdog needs to be given some respect. I remember when Craigdog was sitting on something like $300 and still playing .02/.05. Now he's got over $1k in his account and is contemplating moving up from/or into(i cant remember) to .10/.25. This is a prime example of that very steady-headed player that moves up the ladder in the micro stakes, keeping BR management in mind every single step of the way - something that surely myself and other people have cast aside when we sit in a .25/.50 with our entire $50 deposit. Props to him.

And in terms of Cash game success, I sat in a .01/.02 game two nights ago with $5. THere was a maniac there pushing every single hand with a max buy-in for about an entire hour. I walked away from the table with $32. Ship it!

[ObeyTheDog]

Steve,

I have nothing but respect for all poker players, and when it comes to full time cash game players, esp high stakes, I hold those in very high regard for those that are successful at it.

You get the money without the glory, the success without the achievement, the reward without the exposure, and sometimes respect.

Just know that you earn respect from your peers and that's what's most important.

I envy those with the patience, discipline, consistency to put in 40+ hours a week in games that require/reward consistent disciplined actions required to succeed at cash games long term. I tried it, did okay for awhile, but could not deal with it well. I hated my life, my friends, everything about poker. My passion waned and whether I had a 10k month at 30-60 on Party back in the glory days, or a 10k loss, I wasn't happy with my life. I couldn't balance my poker life with a real life and became consumed/poisoined by "the grind".

Now I'm not saying that tournaments are some easy form of poker that any idiot can win...just that it's what scratches my itch, what allows me to keep my sanity and love for the game intact, what allows me to treat the game like a sport with 4 quarters of action and last-second shots at the buzzer and miracle comebacks, the lights, camera, action with some extra creativity thrown in. It's what works for me.

I know of a few individuals you are probably talking about, and believe me, I understand and empathize. What you do, what we do, is more challenging than people give us credit for, and far less glamourous. The disrespect, esp amongst some of these 'pros', is disgusting, and it's only getting worse the more this behavior is rewarded with exposure.

I won't fall into this trap.

I will say that unfortunately, the thing I like least about poker, are the players. When a guy who tries to bully me into giving 10th place bubble his money back and I respectfully decline, and he calls me "greedy, classless, and cheap" multiple times, I question the integrity and class of all players. I tried explaining that it changes the dynamic of the game (without saying in so many words that I want to abuse the shit out of the bubble to maximize my chance of winning). Yet, he calls me greedy, classless, and cheap yet again, muttering this to anyone who will listen. Tell me to "Enjoy my money."

Don't where I'm going with this....all I can really say is, I understand. Even the dating part....it's the first thing I have to explain in detail, because not surprisingly, most women don't want to be with a "gambler" which is how they see it.

Just remember, have the support group ready....group therapy is the only way to maintaining sanity, cause the poker world is fcuked up and it's not changing anytime soon.