8 replies to this topic

[TimmyOne]

I think I raised too much PreFlop and that doomed me ... My roomate and my friends just think I was an idiot -- and i'd kind of like some 'expert' advice.Tournament: PartyPoker Nightly$150 ... Level 2; Blinds 20/10Me (1,300 chips): QQ (button)PreFlop:1Limper (900 chips) -- Call 202Limper (2,200) -- Call 20Me -- Raise 99SB (950) -- Call 99BB (1,100) -- Call 991Limper -- Call 992Limper -- Call 99Flop: Pot~495 chips --- 9s 7d 6s1Limper -- Check2Limper -- Bet 375Me --- ?????? what should I do?I HATE this flop. And I hate that the flop is 5-handed. And I hate that the pot is so big relative to the chip stacks that there is not much "playing room" to manuever. Possible options: Fold, Call, MinimumRaise (750), Go All-InMinimum Raising seems like a dumb move (it makes me Pot committed -- so why not jut move all-in).Calling is pretty bad too (I think). I would like to see a turn card before making my decision, but there aren't too many GOOD turn cards (any A, K, T, 9, 8, 5 or spade could pretty much be a disaster. And I would be relatively pot comitted.Go All-in???? It seems like the "safe" move. Problem is I have 3 players left to act behind me and there are a lot of draws that might call where I'm only a 2-1 or 50-50 to survive.Fold. Well I folded. The consensus amongst my friends is that I was a "chicken". But I want to know what u think?What happened? SB Re Raised All-In with As 2s for the nut flush draw. The 2nd-Limper Called with Td9d. So I was a 36% to win the hand. The Flush draw was about 40% and the 2Limper was 25%.Where did I go wrong? I think I raised too much PreFlop!!!!!! If I had only raised to 40~50, the pot would have only been 200~250 on the flop. In which case I think I could have had more room to either Call or potentially minimumReRaise. What do you all think?

[Vade]

TimmyOne said:

I think I raised too much PreFlop and that doomed me ... My roomate and my friends just think I was an idiot -- and i'd kind of like some 'expert' advice.Tournament: PartyPoker Nightly$150 ... Level 2; Blinds 20/10Me (1,300 chips): QQ (button)PreFlop:1Limper (900 chips) -- Call 202Limper (2,200) -- Call 20Me -- Raise 99SB (950) -- Call 99BB (1,100) -- Call 991Limper -- Call 992Limper -- Call 99Flop: Pot~495 chips --- 9s 7d 6s1Limper -- Check2Limper -- Bet 375Me --- ?????? what should I do?

Raising 5x BB is fine, there are limpers and you have the 3rd best hand. Making it 99 is a bit of a punk move that probably drew more callers for that reason :PPersonally, I'm going to have to fold this as well. This flop is way too coordinated to move in on, and if you call you might as well go all in imoMy first impulse is all in, but at a tournament I think you have to fold

[RonBurgundy]

min raising is a bad option even if you have room to do it. it doesn't really accomplish anything. gotta fold this to a raise and a reraise and yea it sucks. but the next time it comes 2-6-9 rainbow and u have QQ ur gonna be happy the idiot called preflop with his 9-10 or whatever he pays you off with. Fold reluctantly.

[HoosierAlum]

I encountered a hand almost exactly the same in the tournament I was playing in the other night. However, being the over- aggressive idiot I am in tourneys, I didn't survive. I bet the pot because it was checked to me, and I was check raised all-in. I was pot committed to call and the raiser had bottom pair with an open-ended draw.I wish he would have led out and bet because then I could have laid this hand down.I don't think your decision to lay down the hand was "chicken" at all. In fact, you made the correct play. You aren't a big favorite vs. virtually any hand that would be betting, so why take a chance so early in the tourney? Sure you might be up against someone who has a pair and is open ended like in my situation, but even then you are only a slight favorite. Most likely you are dominated by a set 0or a straight; or up against a draw which puts you in a virtual coin flip situation. Calling is completely out of the question, and obviously so is raising the minimum. You are lucky he led out and bet, this makes it an easy fold. Good move.

[Rocketwadster]

3 - 6 X the BB is a normal raise pre-flop with a strong hand, large enough to get rid of the riff-raff, but small enough to induce action (which IS what you want, as you want to increase your chips), WHEN FIRST TO ACT. Queens are subject to being beat by the strong over-cards (any king or ace will have you worried), so you need to raise a little stronger than you would with pocket kings or aces or even ace-king, as you DON'T want an ace-rag coming in and catching an ace for example. In your game, you had two guys who limped in for $20 ahead of you. raising them about 80 more isn't going to get them to fold, you needed to bet much higher here to do that. You also have players behind you who have yet to act, which you must consider. Plus, with your relatively small raise in this situation, every subsequent player who called increased the pot odds for the players yet to act behind you, resulting in exactly what you didn't want to happen, having a family pot with lots of money out there for everyone to want. Now, the flop comes out, which is a terrible flop for your hand with all those players in the pot. If there were one or maybe two players, a pot-sized bet would be in order. Any more players than that in the pot, and you have to hope to get some free cards, as the straight and flush possibilities are so large here. Anyone bets, you fold and live to fight another day. :wink:

[srblan]

If I were playing the hand, preflop I would have raised slightly more than pot size. Opening for 3x BB or so is fine, but when you have limpers, your bet has to get bigger or you are going get exactly what you ended up with: 87 callers. Here, with 70 in the pot, my raise would be at least 150. You could even go for an overbet, hoping that someone will think you are on a steal and play back.On the flop, you are in a situation where any of three approaches would be correct: push, fold, or fold and go into a Hellmuthian rant (I think I just made up a word), berating all of those who called your raise. If I felt that my opponents were capable of laying down a draw, a strong argument could be made for pushing. You probably won't lose much folding, but I would probably push. I'm not worried about the guys to act behind me because unless there are several in the pot, they aren't going to be getting the right price to call your push. This is such a marginal situation...

[Devilkin]

Since this is a tournament, and not a ring game, here is how I would play it.In a tournament, survival is key. What would this guy have to bet hard like this? Obviously he has something fairly good to call your fairly significant raise.I think you underraised in this situation. My standard is 3x-5x the BB, plus one BB for each limper ahead of me. So in this instance, I would raise say 4x, plus another two BB for two limpers for a total of 6BB, or 120. Remember this is the amount of the raise, so thats 120 + the BB bet, so 140 total.Now your problem is, with the rise of the 'suited connector' craze, even a good sized bet like this may not be enough to force them out, but it would have probably forced out hands like A2s. You are correct that there are too many in the pot.You are correct - this flop is horrible. Flush draw, straight draw, straight flush draw, possibility of KK/AA out there.You are correct that min raise makes you pot committed, so its all in or fold it up. Min raise is not a good option here.QQ is a one of those hands that does well on an uncoordinated board, but on one like this . . survival is key. I also fold this one up, and wait for a better post flop situation.Call me conservative if you like, but Id rather be in this pot with bottom pair and a straight draw (which is very possible with a suited connector) than with QQ.Dev

[Rocketwadster]

Quote

My standard is 3x-5x the BB, plus one BB for each limper ahead of me.  So in this instance, I would raise say 4x, plus another two BB for two limpers for a total of 6BB, or 120.  Remember this is the amount of the raise, so thats 120 + the BB bet, so 140 total.

I like your forumla here. As you can see what I posted before you, I would have played in the manner you have indicated here, but I never thought about having an actual formula for my raise. Excellent idea :clap:

[Devilkin]

Quote

I like your forumla here. As you can see what I posted before you, I would have played in the manner you have indicated here, but I never thought about having an actual formula for my raise. Excellent idea Clap

TY - I can't claim credit for it, but I do successfully use it. If anyone knows the originator of it (I believe its in one of the well known poker books, but Ive read so many lately they are all merging together), Id like to know.Dev