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Qq Vs A Dry Board


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#21 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:05 AM

View Postshinzilla, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 5:52 PM, said:

lol lol lolsome of you guys would be so exploitable. why are you guys so scared? this is a blocking bet so often. call the turn and most rivers if bet, and bet the river if checked to.
What is the range of hands he is making a blocking bet with on this board?

#22 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:11 AM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:05 PM, said:

What is the range of hands he is making a blocking bet with on this board?
Any PP and any piece of the board. This happens often with weak hands that want to play past the flop c-bet, especially in a short handed game.
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#23 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:21 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 6:11 PM, said:

Any PP and any piece of the board. This happens often with weak hands that want to play past the flop c-bet, especially in a short handed game.
I am not as experienced as anybody who plays at these stakes but will players at this level call OOP with a hand like AJ with this pf action at these stakes? Are they even going to take a flop with a hand like 88, TT with a UTG raise and reraise in front of them?It definitely seems fishy, but the pot is offering 4:1 so you only have to win 20% of the time for this call to be acceptable. But if you are calling what are you doing on the river?Hero has around 45% of his stack in after this call. Doesn't that make him committed to calling a riverbet?

#24 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:30 AM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:21 PM, said:

I am not as experienced as anybody who plays at these stakes but will players at this level call OOP with a hand like AJ with this pf action at these stakes? Are they even going to take a flop with a hand like 88, TT with a UTG raise and reraise in front of them?It definitely seems fishy, but the pot is offering 4:1 so you only have to win 20% of the time for this call to be acceptable. But if you are calling what are you doing on the river?Hero has around 45% of his stack in after this call. Doesn't that make him committed to calling a riverbet?
No, we're not committed on the river. If a bad card falls, or he shoves and we think we're beat, we can still get away from this. But folding to this turn bet is absolutely absurd to the point where you seriously are checking for monsters under your bed before you sleep.Also, this is six max. That's what makes the huge difference, not the stakes.
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#25 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:35 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 6:30 PM, said:

No, we're not committed on the river. If a bad card falls, or he shoves and we think we're beat, we can still get away from this. But folding to this turn bet is absolutely absurd to the point where you seriously are checking for monsters under your bed before you sleep.Also, this is six max. That's what makes the huge difference, not the stakes.
Well obviously $1/$2 is a little different to the $.02/$.05 I play at lol. But at 6 max people's general ranges are much wider? So hands like AJ etc would play here?

#26 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:41 AM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:35 PM, said:

Well obviously $1/$2 is a little different to the $.02/$.05 I play at lol. But at 6 max people's general ranges are much wider? So hands like AJ etc would play here?
Take a deck of cards (still have on of those ancient things?).Sit down and deal yourself out 100 hands six handed face up.Then sit down and deal yourself out 100 hands 10 handed face up.This should answer your question.
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#27 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:51 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 6:41 PM, said:

Take a deck of cards (still have on of those ancient things?).Sit down and deal yourself out 100 hands six handed face up.Then sit down and deal yourself out 100 hands 10 handed face up.This should answer your question.
I think playing a hundred hands at a six handed table is a more effective way to do it.But anyway, thanks for answering my questions. :club:

#28 krup24

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:59 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:00 PM, said:

Don't even attempt to fail me. This is a horrific fold. ZOMG!!! Less than a third of the pot!!!! BETTAR FOLD ME OVERPAIR ON DA SAFAST BOARD EVAR AT 6 MAX!Edit: The amount of people wanting to make a hero fold here makes me want to vomit.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if villian tabled AA here. I mean the only hand you can put villian on is AJ or 88-TT which is why i make a ton of money playing AA or a set like villian. If you can't fold an overpair then you have a long way to go.I would fold. But another reason was for your fail was that based on stack sizes i believe this is a push or a fold. Calling and calling/betting is the worst option here. Calling/checking behind could work though.
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#29 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:07 AM

View Postkrup24, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:59 PM, said:

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if villian tabled AA here. I mean the only hand you can put villian on is AJ or 88-TT which is why i make a ton of money playing AA or a set like villian. If you can't fold an overpair then you have a long way to go.I would fold. But another reason was for your fail was that based on stack sizes i believe this is a push or a fold. Calling and calling/betting is the worst option here. Calling/checking behind could work though.
Usually calling down implies a river check.Don't give me that never folding overpairs bullcrap. And I'm aware of stack sizes, which is why I didn't say raise/fold, because there's no room for it. This is not the pot, board, or bet to fold an overpair to. You're advocating making a hero fold, and that's all there is to it.Not to mention the villain is unknown and you're giving him a super large amount of credit. You do realize that most players you run into are bad, right?Oh, we can include:7-7, A-9s float, J-10s, Q-Js, K-Js etc etc etc
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#30 krup24

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:43 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 2:07 PM, said:

Not to mention the villain is unknown and you're giving him a super large amount of credit. You do realize that most players you run into are bad, right?Oh, we can include:7-7, A-9s float, J-10s, Q-Js, K-Js etc etc etc
Assuming any unknown is bad is a failthat range is atrocious, A-9 raising and calling a strong reraise come on, fail
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#31 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:49 AM

View Postkrup24, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 7:43 PM, said:

Assuming any unknown is bad is a failthat range is atrocious, A-9 raising and calling a strong reraise come on, fail
Can you honestly fold an overpair here getting 4:1 on a call? Can we not just call/check or call/fold?

#32 StPong

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 10:52 AM

I think making a fold your standard move in this situation is a mistake that's exploitable, as was already suggested. If you get a reputation for doing this, people will just start calling your pf re-raises and playing you this way all day. Even if villain does have a set this time, sticking around gives you a tougher image.Also, I agree that a fold gives too much credit to the villain.

#33 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:04 AM

If you are fairly pecemistic about his range based on his line here are some hands that fit:Beating us:JJ - 3 combinations99 - 3 combinationsWe beat:TT - 6 combinations88 - 6 combinationsAJ - 12 combinationsEven if you add in AA and KK as hands that beat us, which I don't believe would take this line anyway, it doesn't matter. EVEN if you drop out TT & 88 there would still be 12 hands that play this line we beat and 18 hands that we don't.Surely that means as long as you are getting at least 3:2 it is correct to call a bet on the turn AND river?

#34 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:07 AM

View Postkrup24, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 2:43 PM, said:

Assuming any unknown is bad is a failthat range is atrocious, A-9 raising and calling a strong reraise come on, fail
I didn't say it was a solid play. However, you'll see it just as often as you'll see A-A and K-K played this way. That's what a lot of people tend to forget... not all hands within a range are equally within a range.Oh, and the villain hasn't raised at ANY point in this hand, if you want to nit pick.
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#35 mtdesmoines

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:59 AM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

Can you honestly fold an overpair here getting 4:1 on a call? Can we not just call/check or call/fold?
I can muck it if I believe I'm 8% to win and the villain is proposing to put half my chips in the pot.
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#36 AimHigher

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 12:11 PM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 8:59 PM, said:

I can muck it if I believe I'm 8% to win and the villain is proposing to put half my chips in the pot.
Unless I had strong knowledge of the opponent's tendencies I don't think I could rule out enough of his range to say with 100% certainty that my queens are crushed by either kings, aces, jacks or nines.

#37 Acid_Knight

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 12:41 PM

People need to focus on what happened preflop becuase I think that's really the key to everything going on here.An UTG player raised and a player behind them reraised. The villain in the hand coldcalls a raise and a reraise, OOP, with the original UTG raiser still to act. He then check/calls a bet on a totally dry flop and leads an equally harmless looking turn card with a bet that the Hero is never expected to fold to.For everyone saying that the villain can have AJ, I think that's pretty ridiculous. Yeah, I know people are bad, but that's just a disgusting play. When someone coldcalls here, they almost always wind up with a hand that's either AK or 88-JJ type of hands and rarely AA. I think KK probably 4 bets preflop. Yeah, I know if they're gonna coldcall with 88, how is 33 or 44 any different, and the answer is: it's not.I would put my money on the fact that the villain has 99, TT or JJ here and the TT just seems unlikely beucase the line is so weird. Given the action, it's unlikely that Cwik would bet unpaired overcards on the turn again, so TT would likely check and fold to another bet. I really think the whole hand feels way too much like a flopped or even turned set here. I even think that 99 is more likely because a set often raises this flop becuase it's usually their best chance to stack an overpair.If you want to call, I call the turn and fold to a river bet. I think that there's nothing wrong with folding to this turn bet here. Yeah, it looks kind of exploitable, but everything adds up to us being beaten here. The whole sequence of events that happens is so rare that I don't think that dumping QQ here is gonna be too exploitable at all. It really feels like the villain knows he's got a lock on the hand and doesn't want the turn to get checked through, so he makes a small enough bet that you could consider calling with an AK/AQ type of hand, thinking that an overcard might be a win for you. There are just so few hands that make sense for a reasonable player to play this way and you basically only beat 1 of them, so I'm probably letting this hand go.

#38 Acid_Knight

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 12:52 PM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:11 PM, said:

Unless I had strong knowledge of the opponent's tendencies I don't think I could rule out enough of his range to say with 100% certainty that my queens are crushed by either kings, aces, jacks or nines.
You don't need to be 100% sure of anyhting. And really, what could his range here be anyway? I think the only hands that we beat that legitimately belong in his range are AK, TT and 88 and the post flop play should eliminate AK and the rest of the play is just bad for 88 or TT.

#39 mtdesmoines

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:03 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM, said:

People need to focus on what happened preflop becuase I think that's really the key to everything going on here.An UTG player raised and a player behind them reraised. The villain in the hand coldcalls a raise and a reraise, OOP, with the original UTG raiser still to act. He then check/calls a bet on a totally dry flop and leads an equally harmless looking turn card with a bet that the Hero is never expected to fold to.For everyone saying that the villain can have AJ, I think that's pretty ridiculous. Yeah, I know people are bad, but that's just a disgusting play. When someone coldcalls here, they almost always wind up with a hand that's either AK or 88-JJ type of hands and rarely AA. I think KK probably 4 bets preflop. Yeah, I know if they're gonna coldcall with 88, how is 33 or 44 any different, and the answer is: it's not.I would put my money on the fact that the villain has 99, TT or JJ here and the TT just seems unlikely beucase the line is so weird. Given the action, it's unlikely that Cwik would bet unpaired overcards on the turn again, so TT would likely check and fold to another bet. I really think the whole hand feels way too much like a flopped or even turned set here. I even think that 99 is more likely because a set often raises this flop becuase it's usually their best chance to stack an overpair.If you want to call, I call the turn and fold to a river bet. I think that there's nothing wrong with folding to this turn bet here. Yeah, it looks kind of exploitable, but everything adds up to us being beaten here. The whole sequence of events that happens is so rare that I don't think that dumping QQ here is gonna be too exploitable at all. It really feels like the villain knows he's got a lock on the hand and doesn't want the turn to get checked through, so he makes a small enough bet that you could consider calling with an AK/AQ type of hand, thinking that an overcard might be a win for you. There are just so few hands that make sense for a reasonable player to play this way and you basically only beat 1 of them, so I'm probably letting this hand go.
Pretty much spot on. The $40 lead on the turn is waaaayyyy too callable, AND it is just enough to commit us to the hand. The villain is positive he's ahead, and he's filling the pot. If we were sure we were ahead, we'd want to massage this pot in just this way. I'll bet that we find ourselves getting pushed into on the river.
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#40 cwik

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:40 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 1:41 PM, said:

People need to focus on what happened preflop becuase I think that's really the key to everything going on here.An UTG player raised and a player behind them reraised. The villain in the hand coldcalls a raise and a reraise, OOP, with the original UTG raiser still to act. He then check/calls a bet on a totally dry flop and leads an equally harmless looking turn card with a bet that the Hero is never expected to fold to.For everyone saying that the villain can have AJ, I think that's pretty ridiculous. Yeah, I know people are bad, but that's just a disgusting play. When someone coldcalls here, they almost always wind up with a hand that's either AK or 88-JJ type of hands and rarely AA. I think KK probably 4 bets preflop. Yeah, I know if they're gonna coldcall with 88, how is 33 or 44 any different, and the answer is: it's not.I would put my money on the fact that the villain has 99, TT or JJ here and the TT just seems unlikely beucase the line is so weird. Given the action, it's unlikely that Cwik would bet unpaired overcards on the turn again, so TT would likely check and fold to another bet. I really think the whole hand feels way too much like a flopped or even turned set here. I even think that 99 is more likely because a set often raises this flop becuase it's usually their best chance to stack an overpair.If you want to call, I call the turn and fold to a river bet. I think that there's nothing wrong with folding to this turn bet here. Yeah, it looks kind of exploitable, but everything adds up to us being beaten here. The whole sequence of events that happens is so rare that I don't think that dumping QQ here is gonna be too exploitable at all. It really feels like the villain knows he's got a lock on the hand and doesn't want the turn to get checked through, so he makes a small enough bet that you could consider calling with an AK/AQ type of hand, thinking that an overcard might be a win for you. There are just so few hands that make sense for a reasonable player to play this way and you basically only beat 1 of them, so I'm probably letting this hand go.
I very much agree with your write up, but just want to mention I wouldn't rule out AA/KK here. UTG raise -> UTG+1 reraise -> a 4bet here looks VERY strong, almost always going to be AA/KK sometimes AK/QQ and very rarely a bluff. For this reason I think a lot of players will flat call to conceal the strength of their hand. Maybe 50/50 raise to call.




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