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King High Flush Draw, 3 Way Pot...


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#21 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:53 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

It's not a -EV play.
How do you know? If you call, you know what your pot odds are. You get to see the turn, you're getting the right price, it's +EV. If you shove, you put in more money and allow the BB to shove on you. It's unlikely, but it can happen.

#22 mtdesmoines

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:00 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 11:53 AM, said:

How do you know? If you call, you know what your pot odds are. You get to see the turn, you're getting the right price, it's +EV. If you shove, you put in more money and allow the BB to shove on you. It's unlikely, but it can happen.
Seriously. We don't want to scare the BB away. Call.
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#23 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:04 PM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 1:00 PM, said:

Seriously. We don't want to scare the BB away. Call.
This isn't my point. We don't care if the BB sticks around or not really, but we just don't wanna get bet off of the hand and there are only 3 ways for that to happen.1. Reopen flop betting and have the BB shove on us2. We miss the turn and the BB open shoves3. We miss the turn, BB checks, we check, Button bets/shoves and then the BB shovesBarring these 3 things, we know with a high degree of certainty that we'll get to see the river without ever making a -EV call in relation to the pot odds.

#24 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:05 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:53 PM, said:

How do you know? If you call, you know what your pot odds are. You get to see the turn, you're getting the right price, it's +EV. If you shove, you put in more money and allow the BB to shove on you. It's unlikely, but it can happen.
Are you scared to three bet KK?ZOMG HOW DO YOU KNOW CALLING ISN'T -EV THE BB COULD HAVE DA NUTZ FRUSH DRUWZ!
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#25 mtdesmoines

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:11 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:04 PM, said:

This isn't my point. We don't care if the BB sticks around or not really, but we just don't wanna get bet off of the hand and there are only 3 ways for that to happen.1. Reopen flop betting and have the BB shove on us2. We miss the turn and the BB open shoves3. We miss the turn, BB checks, we check, Button bets/shoves and then the BB shovesBarring these 3 things, we know with a high degree of certainty that we'll get to see the river without ever making a -EV call in relation to the pot odds.
Agree with this, too. We have position on the bigger stack. Let's take advantage of it.
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#26 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:13 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:04 PM, said:

This isn't my point. We don't care if the BB sticks around or not really, but we just don't wanna get bet off of the hand and there are only 3 ways for that to happen.1. Reopen flop betting and have the BB shove on us2. We miss the turn and the BB open shoves3. We miss the turn, BB checks, we check, Button bets/shoves and then the BB shovesBarring these 3 things, we know with a high degree of certainty that we'll get to see the river without ever making a -EV call in relation to the pot odds.
Actually, we'd still be correct to call here.
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#27 Influcted

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:38 PM

I would've flat called, what is the turn?
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#28 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:44 PM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 1:05 PM, said:

Are you scared to three bet KK?ZOMG HOW DO YOU KNOW CALLING ISN'T -EV THE BB COULD HAVE DA NUTZ FRUSH DRUWZ!
WE DON'T HAVE KK. REPPING KK OR A SET IS POINTLESS WHEN WE NEED TO SHOWDOWN THE BEST ****ING HAND TO WIN. THIS IS REALLY SIMPLE. IF I THOUGHT I HAD THE BEST HAND, I'D RAISE TO PROTECT IT. I CAN'T PROTECT KING HIGH BECUASE I DON'T BEAT A SINGLE ****ING THING. IF I HAD KK, I'D SHOVE. IF I HAD A SET, I'D SHOVE. IF I HAD ANYTHING THAT MIGHT EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLE FOLD EQUITY, I MIGHT SHOVE. WE DON'T, SO SHOVING IS POINTLESS.So, you'd feel better shoving here and getting called by a hand that beats you AND the nut flush draw (yes, this is a reasonable holding for the BB) and drawing almost dead as opposed to taking an attractive pot odds proposition and then having to stick in the rest of your chips with the 2nd nut flush against the nut flush?Also, pretty sure this is my first ever all CAPS LOCK post. Partly inspired by Zach and the rest of the inspiration came from my frustration that this simple concept even has to be argued.

#29 tskillz187

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:53 PM

:acidknightredinthefaceface:
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#30 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:55 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:44 PM, said:

WE DON'T HAVE KK. REPPING KK OR A SET IS POINTLESS WHEN WE NEED TO SHOWDOWN THE BEST ****ING HAND TO WIN. THIS IS REALLY SIMPLE. IF I THOUGHT I HAD THE BEST HAND, I'D RAISE TO PROTECT IT. I CAN'T PROTECT KING HIGH BECUASE I DON'T BEAT A SINGLE ****ING THING. IF I HAD KK, I'D SHOVE. IF I HAD A SET, I'D SHOVE. IF I HAD ANYTHING THAT MIGHT EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLE FOLD EQUITY, I MIGHT SHOVE. WE DON'T, SO SHOVING IS POINTLESS.So, you'd feel better shoving here and getting called by a hand that beats you AND the nut flush draw (yes, this is a reasonable holding for the BB) and drawing almost dead as opposed to taking an attractive pot odds proposition and then having to stick in the rest of your chips with the 2nd nut flush against the nut flush?Also, pretty sure this is my first ever all CAPS LOCK post. Partly inspired by Zach and the rest of the inspiration came from my frustration that this simple concept even has to be argued.
You asked me "How do I know this isn't a -EV play" and I already friggin explained it to you. Saying "How do I know" is implying a friggin scared mindset. That's why I say shit like that because the fear is equally ridiculous. It's seriously what it sounds like to me. Learn to understand analogies :club:.Raising a size that totals the button's stack here will allow you to NEVER MAKE A -EV MOVE. I showed you the odds on what would happen if the BB called or folded. If he pushes, then the rest of our stack, compared to the rest of his stack, plus the rest of the pot is still proper to call.I think the problem is that it is possible that raising with a flush draw, and only a flush draw, that can jeopardize our stack, can and in this situation is +EV and your mind exploded at the idea.
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#31 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:07 PM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 1:55 PM, said:

You asked me "How do I know this isn't a -EV play" and I already friggin explained it to you. Saying "How do I know" is implying a friggin scared mindset. That's why I say shit like that because the fear is equally ridiculous. It's seriously what it sounds like to me. Learn to understand analogies :club:.Raising a size that totals the button's stack here will allow you to NEVER MAKE A -EV MOVE. I showed you the odds on what would happen if the BB called or folded. If he pushes, then the rest of our stack, compared to the rest of his stack, plus the rest of the pot is still proper to call.I think the problem is that it is possible that raising with a flush draw, and only a flush draw, that can jeopardize our stack, can and in this situation is +EV and your mind exploded at the idea.
The idea of raising with a flush draw, or any draw, is called semiBLUFFING. When you are bluffing in any form, the idea is that your opponents will fold and that you can win the pot that way. I already said that if you ever had the ability to win the pot without a showdown, I'd say, sure raise, aggression is good.Advocating that if you raise the exact size of the button's remaining stack prevents you from making a -EV move is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yeah, it's true, you'll have the odds even if the BB shoves on you, but that doesn't make it a good move. Unnecessarily pricing yourself into hands is not an excuse for anything. That logic falls along the lines of reraising to some HUGE unreasonable amount (also pointless) and then when you get shoved on you say "well, I was getting 3-1 and I couldn't fold for that price" which is technically correct, but the fact that you ever got a price that good just shows how terrible your bet was in the first place.

#32 No_Neck

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:07 PM

Nuts I love you but you are wrong (IMHO), this is the easiest call EVER

#33 mtdesmoines

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:09 PM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:55 PM, said:

and your mind exploded at the idea.
Kramer?
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#34 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:10 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 1:53 PM, said:

:acidknightredinthefaceface:
IMHO, PoTD.

#35 tskillz187

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:24 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:10 PM, said:

IMHO, PoTD.
Looking at your last blog entry I have a little problem with your word choice. By "I played well" did you mean you got ran over by the deck and then when it stopped you blinded down and busted with 2 outs? Please clear that up for me.Concerned blog reader,tskillzps. congrats on the cash you card dependent donkey
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#36 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:29 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:24 PM, said:

Looking at your last blog entry I have a little problem with your word choice. By "I played well" did you mean you got ran over by the deck and then when it stopped you blinded down and busted with 2 outs? Please clear that up for me.Concerned blog reader,tskillzps. congrats on the cash you card dependent donkey
Mostly I meant that I was patient. I picked my spots well. I minimized my losses in the pots that I was behind in and didn't try to do anything crazy. Yeah, I got run over by the deck in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that I didn't play well.And LOL at you congratulating me on cashing for $50!

#37 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:28 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 4:07 PM, said:

The idea of raising with a flush draw, or any draw, is called semiBLUFFING. When you are bluffing in any form, the idea is that your opponents will fold and that you can win the pot that way. I already said that if you ever had the ability to win the pot without a showdown, I'd say, sure raise, aggression is good.Advocating that if you raise the exact size of the button's remaining stack prevents you from making a -EV move is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yeah, it's true, you'll have the odds even if the BB shoves on you, but that doesn't make it a good move. Unnecessarily pricing yourself into hands is not an excuse for anything. That logic falls along the lines of reraising to some HUGE unreasonable amount (also pointless) and then when you get shoved on you say "well, I was getting 3-1 and I couldn't fold for that price" which is technically correct, but the fact that you ever got a price that good just shows how terrible your bet was in the first place.
I don't know why you bother I'm just gonna keep showin you that your logic applies to the call line as well.Say you call, the turn is a brick, checks to the button, the Button shoves, and the BB calls. You're going to be priced into the hand, and you're going to call, and you're lying if you say otherwise. Now, what has happened in this situation? "Unnecessarily pricing yourself into hands is not an excuse for anything." Calling isn't necessary, folding is an option, period.Oh, and hey, remember that hand Naismith posted with 8-6s on the monster draw, and you said he had zero fold equity, but Naismith ended up pushing the hand and forcing a fold? Do I have to show you a link? Guess what, people will make fold, and poor folds at that. People will make mistakes. In fact, only the house and lucky people would EVER profit from poker if others didn't make mistakes. So guess what I'm doing? I'm creating a situation that allows another to make a mistake, and if they don't it still won't hurt me in the long run. This is the entire point of ever being aggressive. If you want to be passive and be at the mercy of the cards, fine. It's still not a terrible play given your odds that are laid out, but that doesn't make raising wrong.Oh, and no matter what I'm holding, if I'm getting the proper odds to bet a hand and get all my money in the hand I never consider it a bluff. You're just stuck on the fact that we don't have a made hand yet. I encourage you to play some Omaha for a while and maybe you'll understand this school of thinking.By the way, Doyle and KT would raise here :club:
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#38 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:47 PM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:28 PM, said:

Say you call, the turn is a brick, checks to the button, the Button shoves, and the BB calls. You're going to be priced into the hand, and you're going to call, and you're lying if you say otherwise. Now, what has happened in this situation? "Unnecessarily pricing yourself into hands is not an excuse for anything." Calling isn't necessary, folding is an option, period.
You show me where in this thread did I ever advocate folding? From the start, I agreed that the only scenario where we'd ever be folding after flatcalling the flop was if the BB checks the turn, we check, the button shoves and the BB overshoves. Aside from that scenario, I have ZERO problem with calling bets and putting chips into this pot becuase we'll be getting the right odds to do so.

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:28 PM, said:

Oh, and hey, remember that hand Naismith posted with 8-6s on the monster draw, and you said he had zero fold equity, but Naismith ended up pushing the hand and forcing a fold? Do I have to show you a link?
In Naismith's thread, I was saying that he should never c/r the turn because he'd have zero FE, which is true becuase any bet that the player behind him (UTG+1 or whatever) would make would basically commit him to the pot. The hand turned out that he bet, the shortstacked player folded, the SB c/r to $100 and Naismith shoved there, which is fine becuase he had a draw and he had...........get ready for this one...................FOLD EQUITY. The other guy had enough chips to fold after his bet.

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:28 PM, said:

Guess what, people will make fold, and poor folds at that. People will make mistakes. In fact, only the house and lucky people would EVER profit from poker if others didn't make mistakes. So guess what I'm doing? I'm creating a situation that allows another to make a mistake, and if they don't it still won't hurt me in the long run. This is the entire point of ever being aggressive. If you want to be passive and be at the mercy of the cards, fine. It's still not a terrible play given your odds that are laid out, but that doesn't make raising wrong.
So, let me get this straight. From reading this paragraph, you're saying that you're gonna get him to make a mistake (or at least provide him the opportunity) by raising, and that mistake is going to be that he's gonna fail to put in this last $7 after already raising to $10? This is what you're saying? How does this benefit you? He's basically never folding here. You get more money in with K high and you don't fold out the 3rd player. Where is the benefit to you? Oh, right, becuase they see that you play flush draws aggressively when people won't fold, I remember now.

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 3:28 PM, said:

Oh, and no matter what I'm holding, if I'm getting the proper odds to bet a hand and get all my money in the hand I never consider it a bluff. You're just stuck on the fact that we don't have a made hand yet. I encourage you to play some Omaha for a while and maybe you'll understand this school of thinking.
God, I hate getting into pissing contests, but I'd bet that I've played more PLO and PLO8 (and for higher stakes) than you have. This hand is not some huge multiway pot in PLO where you have a huge draw (and no made hand) and you're gonna get all of this sick action so you just stick your chips into the pot with an equity edge and hope that your 34% equity in the massive pot wins this time. For all you know, the BB has a bigger spade draw. You said that already and it's a good point. If he has a spade draw and the button has J9o, then our equity in this pot is AWFUL and we need to put as few chips in as possible until we have some kind of made hand. Yeah, we might hit the flush and he BB will have the nut flush and we'll go broke, or maybe he'll have the Q high flush and we'll stack him. The point is that we are unlikely to have much of an equity edge here to stick all of our chips into the pot and therefore should be in no hurry to do it.The fact is that the BB has one of 2 hands here. He's either got a made hand or he's got a draw. If he's got a draw, then all of the chips will go into the pot when a spade falls anyway. If he's got a made hand, then we'd like to take our pot odds and make a hand since he's the one who's made a mistake in letting us draw so cheaply.

#39 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:57 PM

Ya know, I'd actually be happier about this whole hand if Temporary Nuts was just saying:I think you should shove your draw becuase then the button will call off the rest of his stack and then hopefully the BB will fold and we can get HU and see both cards for another $7 while getting a good price and the play might increase my outs if a K is good and I might even fold out the NFD that the BB might hold, which would've really sucked if I played the hand more passively and the spade hit.That scenario would be fine. It's a move that I may or not choose to make, but betting fucking $7 more to put the button all in has to be the stupidest play available here next to folding.

#40 StPong

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 03:30 PM

These are a lot of long posts. Someone check if my understanding is correct.The idea that calling is better than (and therefore not equivalent to) raising is essentially because:1) It's possible for us to prefer folding the turn in some circumstance(s)?2) If we don't make our hand on the turn and it goes check check we can see the river and then fold if we're still left with just K high (saving outselves some money)3) We can still get the money in later if we make our flush so we're not losing value by not putting it in before we hit...that about the gist of it?




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